|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,488 Year: 3,745/9,624 Month: 616/974 Week: 229/276 Day: 5/64 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But the whole concept of God and whether there is one and how to determine if God can be found..etc etc...is beyond understanding.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yes, but how do you know you don't just choose to assume this? If nothing is more obvious than something, the reality is as it is. But if something exists, evidence awaits confirmation---or denial---within your own frame of reference.
It just so happened that I had a sufficient reason to believe. Not everybody does.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I became a believer in roughly 1993. I was roughly 34. I don't see the correlation.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
One man sees empty and another sees full. Convince me that empty is better for society. So far all you have given me is the reason (evidence of a low bar) why belief is irrational. I already knew that!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Of course evidence should trump faith and belief. And yet you have said that the supernatural..if it exists...is untestable. Thus no evidence. You managed to get around this dissonance by logically concluding that GOD if GOD exists, does not pick and choose only some. He essentially saves everybody. AZPaul3 claims that there is nothing to justify a belief. Ironically, his may be the rational conclusion...but that does not make it a reality. Remember the construct?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZ writes: So essentially you are dismissing belief as if humans alone are the arbitrator and definer of facts related to all reality. I would argue that we are limited to known reality. Besides, if God wanted humanity to believe based on evidence and facts, everyone would have no choice but to accept that God existed. The very fact that it is debateable(which it is) shows that the jury is out.
Because we study, analyze and understand facts. If there are no facts to study then there is nothing there to understand. AZ writes: I will give you that religion can well be accused in part of being off the wall craziness. Simply the belief that a Creator of all seen and unseen who chose to make Itself known to humanity through a human messenger is itself not that crazy or off the wall simply because no facts or objective evidence arguably support it.
Humanity has shown us that one does not need any reason, sufficient or otherwise, to believe the most off-the-wall craziness. Religion is an excellent example. ringo writes: Elaborate on what you specifically mean by empty beliefs. I would imagine that you would argue that the evidence shows that a global flood never happened. Faith would challenge that one but I don't have time nor concern for it. Ken Ham argues that without Genesis being literal, the whole belief falls apart. I disagree with that too. If you start asserting that Jesus never existed, however, I would argue with you. One of my off the wall beliefs is that we are basically in a spiritual war in the known and unknown worlds around us. No objective evidence so far, though...so we come to jar.
Getting rid of the empty beliefs would be better for society. jar writes: That's sensible to you for several reasons. First, you believe that God chooses everyone and that we don't start out damned. You arrived at this belief through logic. Second, you feel that source is irrelevant and that the content of our character and our charged and willful actions during our lives is what really matters...what we do vs what we could have done.
I can pray to God or Allah or Ganesha or Coyote or Raven or Shiva or Vishnu and it is all the same.jar writes: Explain why what the apologists market...namely the "I Am Saved" Christianity is disgusting and pitiful. We still should have responsibility. I'll never forget years ago when I was facing overwhelming bankruptcy debts that you wanted me to pay them all off even if it prevented me from accepting forgiveness from the court. You mentioned that otherwise, everyone would have to pay MY debt. To you, the responsibility was necessary even if it hurt. I chose the other route. I have no regrets and no guilt over having placed my burden on society. Seems like I embraced "get out of responsibility" Christianity as a solution. The result? I no longer gamble and am debt-free. Had I listened to you I would be poor and broke nearly until I died. What is sad and pitiful is that you see no problem with that. Something about an honor system. Which strokes your own ego. Yup, the "get outta responsibility Christianity" is certainly easy to market, disgusting and pitiful.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If you felt that you had a conversion experience...despite lack of evidence apart from the fact that you were under no other undue influences...and if that inner feeling persisted for the next week...then a month...would you by challenging and doubting it be any better off? I let the feeling continue for many years...to the point that I fed it by attending church and was rewarded with confirmation bias through shared experience with others. As for me personally, I'm open-minded enough to question these things but not strong enough to simply throw them away as if God were simply a science experiment in critical thinking. You always claim that the message alone is important. Doing the message must surely make you feel better about yourself by helping others.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You don't get it though---I was different. Not simply a bad burrito feeling in the gut. I'm talking 180 degrees different. A totally new awareness. It carried me for...well...forever if you attribute that one event to today. It's a matter of belief. Is Jesus alive in my heart and mind or is it just me and always was and will be me? You don't expect any obligation from God to leave objective evidence unless he planned on blessing everybody with the same gift. Which I don't see as the case.
Scripture clearly says that few will be chosen. If He simply let all of the riff raff in the door, heaven would become a giant orgie! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: We know yor position regarding this. When you talk about "the Fall", you're calling God a liar because He said Adam and Eve had become more like Him. That is not a "Fall". But consider: Satan was "like God" in a sense. Yet most dogma has Satan falling. A&E fell only in the sense that they learned to think for themselves before they were ready to graduate. Yes, humans have survived and "grown" for many years, but some would argue that in one important sense we lost our connection to a planned inheritance. We can argue all day whether or not growing up in the sense of growing independent is always a good thing.
ringo writes: You really need to explain yourself here.
Denying Jesus Christ is rational and logical.ringo writes: There you go again, falling back on your chosen understanding. If there was no fall, there would be no need for a redeemer. Are you prepared to defend that premise? And you deny God when he says there was no "Fall". Anyway, what I wanted to do was once again focus on the Garden Of Eden metaphorical story and see if we can forge solid ground. What is the story meant to teach? Is it teaching limited to the audience for which it was written? If in fact, the "apologists" got it all wrong, why are they all in agreement with each other while you and a few other skeptics remain outliers?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Bringing this line of argument to a faith topic rather than a science one:
Phat writes:
You all want a BIG God, should One exist. When the whole point of the Trinity and that view is to make GOD personal rather than extremely huuuuge, (like "The Force" in Star Wars. )ringo writes: Perhaps I need to be more clear. Of course, I believe in a BIG God, but also and more importantly a knowable interactive One. jar claims this as my pet fantasy, as well as the fantasy of the CCoI.
You're being dishonest. You yourself constantly refer to "the Creator of all that is". That is necessarily a big God.Phat writes:
My POV is that God is knowable and approachable.ringo writes: My "fruit" needs no defending from me. I can toot my own horn and write my own resume all day, but I'll let others defend me. Let's start by turning that around. You claim that the job of a human is to help others. God is irrelevant to you. So how do you rate your own fruit as we start 2020? And yet your fruit doesn't show any sign of His presence.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
dwise1 writes: Message 2429 Uh, I do not see where ringo had said that. If you are replying to a different message of his, then shouldn't you cite it so that we could all have proper context?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Double Post
Edited by Thugpreacha, : Double PostChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
dwise1 writes:
The other topic was in the science forums and I thought that our dialogue was more fit for a faith based platform.
What!?!? From an entirely different topic?!? What were you thinking?If that message had been in the same topic, then we would have been able to compensate for that deficiency by searching the current page for that quote, which we could expand to previous pages. I know. I sometimes don't think these things through. I was browsing the old topic, started by our beloved member, the late Buzsaw, and realized that the other topic was infringing on Stiles science/evidence based arguments. So I had the idea to switch it. Alas....i cant win for losing, though.
jar writes: I was a bit hasty in bringing the science topic here. I can make it fit with your convoluted logic, however, as you seem to diminish the concept of belief and always insert evidence as the default. Phat, what does any of the stuff you brought over here have to do with the TOPIC? Gathering Info from this old topic:
jar writes:
Unevidenced belief does not necessarily equal fantasy. Did it ever occur to anyone that if a supernatural realm and subsequent "war" does exist, evidence would by necessity be rare? I have said that no one has ever provided a model, mechanism, process, procedure or method to test the supernatural.And as long as there is no evidence of either Demons or Supernatural Evil no one has ever shown any reason anyone should worry about such fantasies. And yes, evidence should trump belief. A a model, mechanism, process, procedure or method would not ordinarily manifest in such a hypothetical situation. Illogical? Certainly. Unlikely? Of course. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Maybe so, but a believer by definition believes either in a source (God, Jesus, Coyote, Raven, etc...) or in themselves (Content). You claim to be a "believer" and of course, you have your own definition---which would help if you explained,.The way that I define believers in this context is the belief in a God Who listens or is aware of your prayer in some regard. When I pray I can use a placeholder, a symbol that I create and choose, but that is all that it is. There is absolutely no way for me to know who if anyone or anything is on the other end of the line. I can pray to God or Allah or Ganesha or Coyote or Raven or Shiva or Vishnu and it is all the same. If there is any answer it is the content that is relevant and important, not the source. Seems that to you, all that is important in prayer is how YOU process it and respond to it. But of course, that corresponds to your prior belief that Christianity is all about what YOU do, could have done, and fail to do. Every religious tradition has its beliefs and handbooks. For some reason, you dislike the usual Christian handbook adapted by and for many churches. Either you did not become a believer like the majority of Christians have defined it as because it simply made no sense to your logic, or, what I think, you simply chose to stick to an honor system that only YOU could control. Hence you call other Christian beliefs as silly, easy, cheap, copouts, and even go so far as to say dishonest. I have read and heard it said by some that it really humbles an ego to accept Christ (as alive and/or current rather than a simple character such as Santa Claus or a heroic late prophet). You likely will answer by asking what the evidence shows. Always with the evidence. To you, my belief is counterintuitive. To me, this is a case where evidence won't--cant--be used. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: It is no excuse. It is a proposed fact. What "necessity"? It sounds more like an excuse for no evidence.1) Spirit cannot be detected except through one's response and reactions to it. Even then, it is personal. Could I, for example, ever convey to anyone else the feeling that I get watching a sunset or hearing a good song? Perhaps this is the reason that we all have the same book yet only you claim to present it word for word and yet believe that the characters are limited to the book itself. The character of Jesus (and the message) that you present to us is only as real as the character that you show us. Just because the majority of Christians would describe a belief in living, active, though objectively unevidenced characters is no reason to challenge them on it. And yet you do. And the reason why we reject what you say is that you attempt to hold our feet to the fire through the words of the book spoken by characters IN the book and yet see no reason why you should listen to what you expect us to listen to. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024