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Author | Topic: Who Made God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
It doesn't take much effort. You can find bunk on page one. The fact that you’ve put so much effort into debunking the Bible....Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The source of the Bible is human wisdom. We know that because the same wisdom is available in other scriptures, some of them older than the Bible.
And you can (and have) found words of wisdom to live by in Matthew 25. jar used to always point out to me the idea of source versus content. Many people are hung up defending the Source of the Bible. Phat writes:
Rubbish. Spontaneous creation from nothing would be a birth without a virgin.
Those who believe what hawking said about a universe who can and will spontaneously create itself from nothing" are in effect believing in a "Virgin Birth" of a universe. Phat writes:
I wish you'd just put things in your own words. Comments?Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's pretty clear, from the inconsistencies, that that is what happened. Dictation by a flying spook fails to explain the narrative.
Do you honestly think that a bunch of writers from among a largely illiterate population each with their own agenda(politically or religiously) compiled these manuscripts? Phat writes:
So does every other holy book. "This sentence is true," is not a reliable source of information.
The Bible confirms a human search for God and subsequent contact. Phat writes:
There is no trustworthy source.
jar will trot out his "facts" about different Gods being described, but he is not a trustworthy source... Phat writes:
An unbiased source is more reliable than a biased one. When assessing the Christian faith, the less Christian the better.
... since he is a closet secular humanist who only claims Christianity.... Phat writes:
I have never been told that. And as I have mentioned countless times, you are the one who throws the Bible away and chooses to embrace the made-up version presented by apologists.
Whenever you are told to throw God away and use your own human reasoning to summerize the Bible... Phat writes:
You really should throw away those childish fairy tales.
... there are principalities and powers with agendas to keep your faith quenched and in a state of doubt. Phat writes:
I've read lots of better ones.
Every Christian knows that the central focus of the books known as the Bible is to lift up Jesus Christ and celebrate the communion between Man and God. If you want storybooks, go find better ones. Phat writes:
It is. I have it on my bookshelf. I've read it probably two dozen times, ever since I could read. Last I checked, Long John Silver is still available. I don't read commentaries about it. Why would I?Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Still waiting for you to roll out one who isn't. Yet you (and ringo) think that all (or a majority of apologists) are dishonest.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I would say somebody is dishonest if he tries to make the Bible say something it doesn't say - for example, claiming that God told the truth and the snake lied.
I need to know what you and jar define as dishonesty? Phat writes:
That has nothing to do with the subject of apologetics. I feed people, ringo. Fear not.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That doesn't even make sense. If He is omnipotent, how can there be things He can not do?
All I'm saying is that God by definition cannot lie... Phat writes:
We've been through that. He might have lied to protect His children, etc.
...(why would He even need to?) Phat writes:
There's no reason to think he is. And there's a whole raft of different Satan characters that shouldn't be shoehorned into one entity anyway. ... if the snake is satan...Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No. Existing is not doing. Based on that logic, God could *even* not exist and yet exist, (since He can do anything! Try again. If God can do anything, how can He be incapable of lying?
Phat writes:
I did. Show us one who doesn't make up stories to nullify Genesis 3.
You asked me about *honest* apologists--- Phat writes:
So you prejudge them, not based the least bit on what they say. You're doing exactly what the apoligists are doing - making up stories to fit your pre-conceived "Truth".
I don't trust many of the atheist speakers because I feel that they have an ax to grind... Phat writes:
So roll out one who isn't. You always avoid discussing what they say.
In conclusion, I don't believe that all Christian Apologists seek to misdirect and "palm the pea" as jar asserts. Phat writes:
What does he say about Genesis 3?
Oh, and about one who I think is honest as the day is long? Vince Vitale. Phat writes:
That's blatantly false. I've been asking you and asking you to present their case. You wouldnt even give them an opportunity to present a case.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If the apologetics are high-quality, why do you keep refusing to discuss them with us? the quality of the apologetic arguments is not dependent on the character flaws.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
"Making Sense of the Old Testament" is kind of a bad way to start. It assumes that the Old Testament will "make sense" if you look at it "correctly". That's the beginning of dishonesty right there. Cameron McAllister is another of the RZIM group that provides a stimulating an honest cultural commentary on the times and beliefs which we all share and individually hold. Stop spamming us with these links and actually bring the arguments here.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, you've absorbed enough to decide that they're "high quality". That should be enough to articulate a response. The main reason is that I am only now understanding and absorbing the arguments in order to articulate the response which I feel. Or does "high quality" just mean they tell you what you want to hear?
Phat writes:
If there's nothing to quote, you don't need to quote. Use your own words.
For another, there are no transcripts from which to quote. Phat writes:
There's no belief and no audacity. The scripture says what it says. If you want to claim that it doesn't mean what it says, you need something extraordinary to back up that claim. The onus is on you to pony up the backup. I can quote scripture, but you have your own preconceived "belief" as to what it means and you even have the audacity to *show* believers where they are wrong.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How is that an "overall interpretation"? It's an obvious fact - and one that applies to a lot of books.
You claim that the characters are only found in the book and have no life of their own outside of the book. Phat writes:
You can't use the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself....
The book itself says that the characters pre-existed the book... Phat writes:
No. Why would you suggest that it isn't?
Did it ever occur to you that this is not simply another science experiment.? Phat writes:
You have it backwards. I can see what works. The people have to help each other if there's going to be any help because your God is flat-out not doing it. I could see that whether or not I had ever heard of the Bible.
You use the scriptures to point out how they support your secular belief in a government of by and for the people that helps its own. Phat writes:
I don't self-identify as an atheist. I self-identify as agnostic. I'm not sure why you are an atheist, but I will again ask. My reasoning is similar to your reasoning about the Tooth Fairy: it's just a silly idea. And the idiotic theology that you spout doesn't make it any less silly.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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ringo Member (Idle past 602 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's what I keep asking you. You dismiss the Bible as a dusty old book and you deny what the closest thing to an objective version of Christ said. It's blindingly obvious that YOUR version of Christ is made up by you. ...but how you can claim to be a Christian when the very Christ on whom the name is based is said by you to be a human creation?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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