|
Author
|
Topic: Jesus - Wholly Man - Wholly God
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
Message 86 of 105 (862174)
09-02-2019 4:55 PM
|
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
09-02-2019 4:11 PM
|
|
Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
HI Faith I don't know if you read the whole talk that I started off this thread with or not. I'll quote the last pert of it that deal with what we are discussing. quote:
To best understand Jesus as wholly man we can turn to Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. Jesus knew that He was walking into a hornet’s nest by going into Jerusalem in the manner in which He did. He would ride in on a donkey making a messianic statement as per the book of Jeremiah. There would be palm branches signifying the cleansing of the Temple drawn from the Maccabean revolt. He would do this knowing that all the powers of darkness stood against Him. There was essentially no doubt that He would be painfully executed on a cross, a death reserved for societal outcasts and others who the Romans wanted to make an example of. As a point of interest a Roman citizen could not be crucified. Crucifixion involved not only as excruciating a death as we can imagine, but one as humiliating as we can imagine. It involved death by being roped or nailed to a cross, stark naked with people throwing taunts and stones at the victim. It was a death that was designed by the Romans to essentially dehumanize the victim as much as possible as an example to others. So in Gethsemane, with this understanding of what was going to happen to Him, he prayed to the father that He wouldn’t have to go through with it. He sweated blood out of pure human fear. Yet, at the end of the day the man Jesus, through prayer and through His total knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures, rode the donkey into Jerusalem, overturned the tables of those He denounced as having turned the Temple into a den of thieves, and then suffered through a sacrificial death as a result. He did this with the faith, built on prayer and His understanding of the Scriptures, that this was His vocation, and that God would vindicate His actions. It was the greatest act of faith in human history. So again, we can only really understand Jesus as wholly man by understanding Him in the context of His own era and culture. Having done that we can gain a clearer picture of how Jesus fits into the entire Biblical narrative. We don’t just see Jesus as wholly man but also as wholly God. I want to conclude by connecting the dots between Jesus as man and Jesus as God. The Jews believed that Yahweh’s dwelling place on Earth was in the Holy of Holies in the Temple. The Gospel of John Chap 1, tells us that that the Word of God that existed beyond time had become flesh. Jesus embodied that Word, the Logos or the wisdom of God. Jesus says that you who have seen Me have seen the Father. Jesus was the place where God’s heavenly dimension and our earthly dimensions overlapped. Jesus was the true Temple of God. Jesus is where they could go to meet Yahweh and seek forgiveness. This still holds true for us today. Also, first century Jews were very much influenced by the book of Daniel. There was much debate of what Daniel’s message was for them. When Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of Man He clearly saw Himself as being the fulfillment of the prophesy in Daniel 7. In Daniel 7 we are told that one like a Son of Man would be brought to the Ancient of Days. Then Daniel says this: 14 He, the Son of Man, was given authority, glory and sovereign power - all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (end of quote) On the 1st Easter an enthroned, vindicated, and resurrected Jesus returned to His followers, as the Son of Man, having been presented to the Ancient of Days and having been given dominion over the kingdom, for then, now, and into eternity. So yes, we worship the man Jesus as the Son of God but we can really only understand His message and His life if we understand the world He lived in, and the very human challenges He faced. For me this is Jesus, wholly man and wholly God, given dominion over all nations, and the first born of the everlasting Kingdom. This is Jesus, who I worship and serve as the second person of the Trinity.
I also want to comment on this statement. Faith writes: And He also had to experience being abandoned by God during His suffering on the cross ("Why have You forsaken Me?") which would have been an immense suffering for one who had never been so deprived before. The quote that you used is from Psalm 22. This was Jesus calling out to His fellow Jews. He is near death on the cross. He is not going to recite the whole psalm so he draws people's attention to what He believed to be happening. He was, by speaking out the first line, drawing their attention to the entire psalm. How does the psalm end? quote:
24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help. 25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows. 26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the LORD will praise him may your hearts live forever! 27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, 28 for dominion belongs to the LORDand he rules over the nations. 29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him those who cannot keep themselves alive. 30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord. 31 They will proclaim his righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it!
He is actually saying that although what is happening to Him looks as if God has deserted Him, but He is saying no, that isn't the case., as it says in verse 24 specifically.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by Faith, posted 09-02-2019 4:11 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Faith, posted 09-02-2019 5:56 PM | | GDR has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 88 of 105 (862190)
09-02-2019 7:40 PM
|
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
09-02-2019 5:56 PM
|
|
Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes: You have the timing of Gethsemane wrong. He had already ridden into Jerusalem on the donkey the week before, He did not go there from Gethsemane which is what you seem to be saying, and He'd already dealt with the moneychangers in the Temple too. Gethsemane follows the Last Supper, Judas has gone to get the authorities and they come to Gethsemane to arrest Him and crucify Him. That's correct and I guess I wasn't clear but the point was that they were all tied together and that Jesus would know how all of it would wind up in the end.
Faith writes: God DID forsake Him briefly on the cross, or He wouldn't have said that. This must mean that the Father withdrew His presence from Him for that period of time. It must have been a feeling of unimaginable desolation. He had to be forsaken to fulfill His mission as our Savior, we being the ones who deserve it and He taking our place. That's a messianic psalm, He was crying out to God, which is what the words actually say... MY GOD MY GOD... He's not crying out to the Jews but to God. That is obviously a quote from Psalm 22. It is quoted exactly in order to draw attention to the whole psalm. He is saying that in spite of appearances He has not been abandoned.
Faith writes: becoming human for our sake Jesus had a human birth. What was He prior to that, and if you say that prior to that He was God then I have to ask who it was that He prayed to, and why would He even need to pray?
Faith writes: But I object strongly to such terms as "vocation" to describe Jesus, as if it's just a role He decided to take in life. Ho hum. It's like the intellectualizing idea that He somehow decided to embody "two strands of Jewish thought." Jesus could not care less about Jewish thought, that's a job for academicians not the Son of God. It was a vocation which He believed He was called to and had it vindicated by the resurrection. It wasn't about Jewish thought but about Jesus' understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Faith, posted 09-02-2019 5:56 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by Faith, posted 09-02-2019 8:36 PM | | GDR has not replied | | | Message 90 by Faith, posted 09-02-2019 8:53 PM | | GDR has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 91 of 105 (862250)
09-03-2019 10:44 AM
|
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
09-02-2019 8:53 PM
|
|
Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes: Do you deny the virgin birth, that God begot Him, not Joseph? If you say He is both wholly God and wholly man how COULD you say that and yet it sounds like that is what you are saying. He said "Before Abraham was, I AM," That's a direct claim to have existed before Abraham, and He uses the name of God for Himself. He also says He "came down from heaven." So yes of course prior to being born human He was God, and He stayed God throughout His human life though He did not live by His divine powers, He lived a human life as we all do, and He is still God AND man, glorified man, the firstborn from the dead unto the Kingdom of God and the new creation, which He opened to us by His life and death as a human being. And again I can't understand how you could ask the question who He prayed to. He prayed AS A MAN, GDR, He did EVERYTHING as a man, and men pray to God. Even if He prayed as the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, it would make good enough sense, but He didn't, He prayed as a man, just as He lived as a man, just as He died as a man. He needed to pray the same way He needed to do everything else human beings do, He came to live the life of a human being. He had put aside His divine powers in order to live as a man. The before Abraham I Was quote simply goes back to John 1 where the Word that existed before time became flesh. Jesus embodied the Word of God. When you say He came down from heaven are you also claiming that He remembered a life in heaven prior to His earthly existence? OK, you’re saying as a man who knew He was God, He prayed to God as any other man. Why would He pray what He did in Gethsemane?
Faith writes: You've many times said that the traditionalist/fundamentalist emphasis on our salvation is "selfish" while you think the "message" is far more important: to have a loving heart. You haven't said that yet here but I suppose eventually you will. The fundamentalist message is essentially that you want to believe the tenants of the Christian faith in order to get yourself on the right side of things when you die. The Scriptural message is that you want to have a heart guided by the Holy Spirit because we have been called as humans to care for our neighbours and all of God’s good creation. When the focus is on personal salvation it is again, all about me which is just the opposite of the Gospel message.
Faith writes: So it seems you really have no explanation whatever for His incarnation. Why would such a messenger need to be God at all? Someone like Paul could have done the job, a mere human being strongly taught in the scriptures and living a blameless life as a Jewish teacher. His incarnation was the work of the Holy Spirit and the virgin conception is fine by me but I’m also ok with it happening some other way. One of the problems with fundamentalism seems to me is that there is a need to be able to have pat answers to all the questions. Christianity is a faith. Yes there are things we have to take as absolutes. Those absolutes are simply that God is good, loving, forgiving, just etc, and that Jesus guided perfectly by the Holy Spirit embodied those attributes. Another absolute is that as followers of Jesus we are called to live out our lives following Jesus’ example of sacrificial love for God’s people and His creation. Further still Christianity teaches that God the Father has made the "Son" Lord of all nations, and that the Kingdom established is for now and forever. Also that there is ultimate meaning and purpose for our lives here on Earth. However again, those absolutes are faith and belief. There is mystery. We don’t have all the answers. There are unanswerable questions. It seems that as Christians we so often get bogged down in arguing about those unanswerable questions that we take the focus off of what God is calling us, and all humans of any faith, to do and be.
Faith writes: Is there any need at all for Jesus to have been "Wholly God" in your way of thinking? Yes, as well as wholly man.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by Faith, posted 09-02-2019 8:53 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 92 by Faith, posted 09-03-2019 11:19 AM | | GDR has not replied | | | Message 93 by Faith, posted 09-03-2019 9:27 PM | | GDR has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 94 of 105 (862490)
09-05-2019 2:22 PM
|
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
09-03-2019 9:27 PM
|
|
Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes: But the Word exist4ed before Abraham, and that's a claim by Jesus to be God. Unless what you are saying is something more convoluted, such as that the Word is not even a person? That is, not the Second Persona of the Trinity? The Word is God’s wisdom and nature with which He metaphorically spoke life into existence. Jesus, the 2nd member of the Trinity embodied that Word
Faith writes: Of course. But I'm not sure how God Himself would "remember" such a "life in heaven." So what I'd say is that He knew He was God who came down from heaven. -- He was Wholly Man, remember? He prayed as a man would pray to God. When you put those two statements together you have Jesus praying to Himself. You make the statement that Jesus was wholly man but anyone who thinks of himself as God who came down from heaven can hardly be wholly man.
Faith writes: Why on earth wouldn't He? He was Wholly Man who had a completely human dread of suffering, especially such intense suffering as He knew was coming. Certainly but you understand Him as knowing that He came down from heaven as God so again, you have Him praying to Himself.
GDR writes: he fundamentalist message is essentially that you want to believe the tenants of the Christian faith in order to get yourself on the right side of things when you die. Faith writes: You put this with maximum cynicism about the motives of your fellow Christians. You then go on to say the following: Faith writes: First, yes it is "all about me." All religions except Christianity require earning your way to whatever their version of salvation is, whether "paradise with 72 virgins" or "nirvana" (which is the cessation of the karma which condemns) or whatever. You get there by practicing their rules, moral rules or whatever rules they teach, usually moral, and most members of those religions know they can never succeed at the task and suffer guilt and anxiety as a result. So some people who come from such religions to Christ are extremely grateful to find out that they can be saved without all that, which is very happy news ("good news" is what the word "gospel" means you know) since they know they could never accomplish it for themselves. What Jesus did is answer the longings of the human heart that have no satisfaction in any other human context, bringing relief from the burden of guilt and anxiety about our future state we all carry when it's all up to us. "Come ye who are heavy laden and I will give you rest" means rest from the burden of sin we carry. "Take my yoke upon you for my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Also, that is what all the proscriptions on work on the sabbath mean and why it is so immensely important that they be carried out in order to assure people that salvation IS given by God: the sabbath is the day of rest from our work of saving ourselves, it stands for Jesus' whole mission of salvation, of taking our burden of sin off our backs and setting us free. He frees us from the fear of death, and in that freedom we are freed to do all those good works from the heart-love you see described in the scriptures, that we could never do with love while we are under the burden of guilt and fear of death. That's the part you always consistently miss. You seem to think it's just a matter of doing good because it's good to do good, without recognizing that we are fallen and CAN'T do it until Christ liberates us. Then we happily do good for others because He has done such good for us. "We love Him because He first loved us." "Ye have been saved UNTO good works:" that is, the good works FOLLOW salvation and can't be done with joy and genuine love of neighbor until we are saved. Remember how Luther struggled so mightily to confess all his sins? He knew that even a single unconfessed sin earned him an eternity of Hell. He piled on the confessions to his poor Confessor, always fearing he was missing something that would condemn him. The Confessor tried to convince him that God is merciful but Luther's knowledge of the scriptures told him that "God's windmills grind exceeding fine" and that God's holiness can't overlook a single sin, that the Law is inexorable. The Protestant Reformation began with his recognition that "The just shall live by faith," and that God's own righteousness is imputed to believers, and that that was the mission of the Savior. Until that recognition he said he could not love God at all, that he only hated Him, but with that recognition he finally had the rest and joy Christ brings us through His sacrifice. After you call me cynical you then go on to exactly confirm my point in that Yes, it is all about Me. That view of the Christian faith is 180 degrees from the message of Jesus. Just read the Gospels. What did Jesus say to the rich young man about inheriting eternal life. He didn’t say believe the right doctrine, He said give away your wealth. What are the two great commandments? Love God and neighbour, and Jesus tells us how to do love God and neighbour in the sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25, along with numerous other quotes in the Gospels. The whole Christian message is about sacrificial love not worrying about what’s going to happen to me when I die. God wants us to live life’s based on love of others and all of His creation and that He’ll look after what comes next.
Faith writes: Second point is that it is slighting Jesus Himself to trivialize His sacrifice as you do. The problem as I see it is just the opposite. If Jesus knew He was God when He went to the cross then He would know that there is pain and suffering involved, but He would know that it would all have a happy ending. Compare that to the numerous people who have loved sacrificially by giving up their lives for others based simply on the fact that that was the right thing to do, However, Jesus went to the cross on the faith, not knowledge, that this was His calling and that God was somehow going to redeem what it was He was doing.
Faith writes: I asked because you've never said anything about why He needed to be God and you still aren't giving any explanation. According to your thinking it seems to me that there was no such need at all, it might as well have been a mere human being, like Paul as I suggested. So please explain just how He needed to be God according to your theology. I’ve given an explanation as to how and why I worship Jesus as a deity, but I have no explanation of why God did it the way He did. I’m more concerned about what He did and maybe in the next life I’ll know why.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Faith, posted 09-03-2019 9:27 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 95 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 2:33 PM | | GDR has replied | | | Message 98 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 9:00 PM | | GDR has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 96 of 105 (862502)
09-05-2019 3:26 PM
|
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
09-05-2019 2:33 PM
|
|
Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes: Therefore, as I said, when Jesus says that "Before Abraham was, I AM" whether He means Himself as the Second Person of the Trinity or as The Word, He is saying He is God. No it simply means that He embodies God's nature, not God Himself.
Faith writes: The theologians who embrace "Wholly God and Wholly Man" also say that Jesus was quite conscious of His divine nature, merely deciding to live by His human nature only, so you and Wright are at odds with the whole Christian tradition. Jesus lived entirely by His human nature so when He prayed to God He prayed as Wholly Man. I'll try this from another perspective. As you know Jesus often referred to Himself as the Son of Man. AS you've acknowledged before this is a clear reference to Daniel 7 where the Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days and then given authority This then gives a sense of time which shows the Ancient of Days, (obviously God), existing prior to the Son of Man. You keep saying that he prayed to God as wholly man but how does that work if Jesus understood Himself as God? Just a thought. Why don's you try reading abook by Wright and seeing what you think. I try and read different perspectives including yours. This is a book I'd suggest. Simply Good News Faith writes: You seem to show up just when I'm about to fall asleep at the computer and have to leave for a while. Oh well. See you later.  Hope you enjoyed the nap. I'm enjoying the discussion.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 2:33 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 97 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 8:39 PM | | GDR has not replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 99 of 105 (862551)
09-06-2019 1:01 PM
|
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
09-05-2019 9:00 PM
|
|
Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes: This isn't making any sense to me. I don't understand your problem. If He is Wholly Man what does such timing matter? As Wholly Man He is able to pray to God. But if He was wholly God from the beginning then He is praying to Himself.
Faith writes: You are only too clear about Wright's theology and it's contrary to traditional and Reformation theology so I really have no reason to spend time on it. Heaven forbid that you might read anything that doesn’t confirm what you have decided to believe. Actually people like Tom Wright, Tim Keller etc go back to the Scriptures and the earlier theology. Yes the reformation did much to curb the excesses of the church, and Luther did much to improve the understanding of grace but it didn’t go far enough. With all of the new scholarship, the dead sea scrolls, the interconnectedness we have with the internet etc, there is a much better understanding of what the Scriptures are about, with emphasis on what a first century Jew listening to Jesus, a first century Jew, would understand.
Faith writes: Generations of theologians from whom I get my basic views have no such idea. It's a really silly idea. I'm going with the generations of theologians. There have also been generations of theologians that would disagree with you.
Faith writes: Your version is cynical because you are accusing us of violating what Jesus taught, but mine is not cynical because I'm saying it's what the gospels teach and not a violation. Not really. Your version of Christianity is neither what Jesus taught, and is actually anti-scriptural.
Faith writes: I should look up a lot of Bible references to answer this so I may have to come back to it later. I gave lots of reasons why salvation is primary already, including Luther's hatred of God before He found out that God's own righteousness isn't a condemnation of him but a gift to him for his salvation. Jesus' death for us isn't something to compare with His commands to us since this is His work, not ours, and we are to receive it with gratitude. Being human we need God's salvation before we can do any good deeds in love. Then we have John's letter about how we can know we are saved, basically loving the brethren, a lot of emphasis on our salvation. Then Paul said somewhere that Jesus died as a "ransom for many." I also think of the "faith" chapter of Hebrews 11 where our salvation isn't the message but many people's personal concerns are fulfilled through faith, kind of selfish concerns to listen to you. Family members coming back to life, etc. "We love Him because He first loved us." God knows us, I get the impression you don't know us very well. First off I agree that we are able to love because God loved us first. Also, I'm not saying that personal salvation isn't important but it isn't the main point. The point is to serve God's Kingdom and to take that love into His creation. Committing to Christ does make us more open to being guided by the Holy Spirit, but that has to do with the faith that we are to live lives based on sacrificial love. Remember also in Ephesians 1 Paul tells us that all things in Heaven and Earth will be brought together under Christ.
Faith writes: You sound like any old unbeliever with such accusations of Jesus. You really are trivializing Him. He died as a man, with human feelings. You say on the one hand that He died like a man but then you say that He had supernatural knowledge that He would be resurrected. Those two ideas are not compatible.
Faith writes: Again everything you say sounds like there was no reason at all for Him to be God, that simply being a man like Paul should have been sufficient. Perhaps you accept that He is God based on scripture then without having any idea why it was necessary. Once again you have pat answers of what people have come up with that give human answers to divine thinking How about just looking at what God has done without having to have an explanation for everything.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 9:00 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 100 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 1:57 PM | | GDR has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 101 of 105 (862616)
09-07-2019 11:36 PM
|
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
09-06-2019 1:57 PM
|
|
Re: Did Jesus know He was going to be resurrected?
Faith writes: Not if He's praying AS MAN, and since He did EVERYTHING as man while on Earth that is what He is doing. He is NOT praying as GOD, He is praying as MAN because that's how He did EVERYTHING while on Earth. You want to have it both ways. You say He knew He was God and that He knew that He would be resurrected. Why then, would He pray to Himself to avoid crucifixion?
Faith writes: There was no lack of scholarship over the centuries that we should need any "new" scholarship. By the time of the Reformation everything needed was available. The Dead Sea Scrolls offer nothing new by the way: all the Old Testament texts found add up to the same identical OT text we already had. I've received lots of teaching from the Jewish perspective, there's nothing left out about that. The Dead Sea Scrolls allowed scholars to understand the first century languages better than they had before is the point. You say that you have received lots of teaching from the Jewish perspective but as you agreed earlier you won't read anything that disagrees with the position you have already taken.
Faith writes: No there have not been "generations of theologians that would disagree" with me, sorry. There are heretics that disagree with the theology I follow and there are occasional theologians who disagree with the theology I follow, there are NOT "generations of theologians" who disagree with the theology I follow. I'm not even claiming to know everything about the traditional theology since I often have to look things up, but there always turn out to be traditional views that do stand out as shared by "generations of theologians." I'm sorry but that is just plain wrong.
Faith writes: Salvation is transformation. We are changed. We are no longer "mere flesh" but our spirit is "quickened" as the KJV puts it, we are "made alive" in a way we weren't before. Before we were "dead in our sins," now we are "alive to God." We are "born again from above." We are made fit for an entirely new life than the one we live on earth from our first physical birth. We are a "new creation," etc etc etc. Salvation is absolutely fundamental, and in fact if we are not born again any good works we do are, in the words of Isaiah, nothing but "filthy rags," which refers to menstrual rags in case you don't know that, meaning good works are only of value if they are done in God's power, or through "impregnation" by God's Spirit as it were. (Scripture can get pretty earthy at times as it were, but all these figures are metaphors for spiritual things.) And that is not possible unless we are born again of the Spirit. Unsaved people can do lots of good works but they don't have any ultimate value in God's eyes because that requires being done by His Spirit. People are saved because they have been given a job to do. Try thinking about the story of the Good Samaritan. A Samaritan was somebody that the Jews looked down for their different religious beliefs. However in the parable Jesus has the Jews walking by the one who needed help and the Samaritan was the one who provided it. It was the Jews that supposedly had Yahweh on their side but it was the Samaritan that had the heart to do the loving thing. Who then had the Holy Spirit.
Faith writes: Scripture shows Him predicting His death AND resurrection many times before the fact. When He says the only sign to be given is the "sign of Jonah" He is saying He will be resurrected. Then there is this: Yes. He predicted that He would be redeemed but it was on faith, not supernatural knowledge.
Faith writes: He knew he was to suffer and die AND BE RAISED on the third day. It couldn't be clearer, GDR, and yet there is no trivialization in scripture of what He suffered. No where did He claim that he would be resurrected. He did claim that God would raise Him up, which is not the same thing. We can go back to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man' is raised up or presented to the Ancient of Days. That is not the same thing as resurrection.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 1:57 PM | | Faith has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
(1)
| |
| |
| |
Re: Did Jesus know He was going to be resurrected?
AlexCaledin writes: Jesus is both Son of Man - and God raising the Humanity from death. Hi Alex This is about how Jesus understood Himself. It is how we see Jesus' place in the Trinity and how Jesus' self awareness in this life. Faith seems to think that Jesus knew that He would be resurrected prior to being crucified and it is my contention that He had the faith and belief that God the Father would in one way or another redeem Him, but without absolute knowledge. This is from Acts7 and is a quote from what Stephen said just prior to being stoned to death: quote:
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 Look, he said, I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.
This the is how Stephen, and the writer of Luke saw the relationship between the Father and the Son. This then is an understanding that we would get from this passage in Daniel 7.
quote:
13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
In this we can see that the very first followers of Jesus believed that Jesus' deity followed His life here. He was given dominion following being presented to the Ancient of Days. Yes, the Bible is also clear that Jesus did fully embody God's nature but at the same time He did have the ability to reject that understanding, but through faith He held true to it. The temptation in the desert metaphorically shows that to be true. So through that we can see Jesus as the Son, who along with the Father and the Spirit that speaks to all of us, constitute the Trinity and explains Jesus as wholly man and wholly God.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
™ Version 4.2