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Author Topic:   The Case For A Creator
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 67 (857912)
07-13-2019 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by PaulK
07-13-2019 9:44 AM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
PaulK writes:
Not all apologists are Biblical Inerrantists either. However jar has a valid point - there are real contradictions in the Bible. Why some people deny it - there’s a question.
Granted. Perhaps a valid line of questioning is to the motives as to why the books were written in the first place. Have people really belived that they interacted with God and that Jesus was more than simply a prophet? Or were the motives less honorable?
Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies. I believe that the origin of the spiritual awareness behind such a war is eternal...or at least before the creation/evolution of this planet and its human inhabitants. And I will admit that this is an irrational belief. I do not think it simply fantasy, however.
I think that the whole story of Star Wars(mythos, if you prefer) is writ large.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2019 9:44 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2019 11:01 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 67 (857917)
07-13-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
07-13-2019 10:27 AM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
jar writes:
The fact is that I do believe but don't try to pretend that it is not illogical, unreasonable and irrational.
I'll give you that. I can and have read much of what you say regarding the irrationality of Christian belief(basic CCoI version) in general. To wit:
jar,addressing Stile writes:
I would tend to agree with you that your position is the reasonable, rational and logical position.
I happen to believe otherwise but certainly realize that my beliefs are unreasonable, irrational and illogical.
Lets test them. How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?
jar writes:
Remember Phat, the Bible itself describes man, plain old human type man, correcting God. We've been over this more then once IIRC.
The Bible itself describes God as unsure, insecure, frightened by the prospects of plain old humans, unable to defeat a plain old human even by using deceit and trickery...
Why do you insist on placing the God YOU create above the God other folk create?
I place the God whom I believe in above all else.
jar writes:
GOD, if GOD exists simply is complete.
God is a little more specific yet still amorphous. You can talk about The Christian God or the Hebrew God or the Hindu Gods or the Islamic God but that doesn't tell us much at all since there is still no such unique specific thing.
Then we get to god where there can be specificity. There is the god from Genesis 1 and the god from Genesis 2 and Ganesha and Thor and Allah and the god Faith markets and the god Spruel marketed and the god MacArthur marketed and the god you like and Coyote and Turtle and ...
phat writes:
Also, do you believe that God, as marketed by Christians, is an improvement on the earlier ideas?
jar writes:
Again, there is no God marketed by Christians but only gods.
And no, I do not think the god most Christians market is an improvement on anything.
What about the GOD (and the Jesus) that you market? Lets trot out the really tough questions!
ringo claims that everything known and/or knowable about the Christian God and His Son Jesus Christ is contained within the book. Which would suggest that God (and Jesus) could never truly be alive within reality and within one's heart...were that true. So which is it? Which do you choose to believe? That God and Jesus are simply characters in a book. Tales of mythos told around campfires so that a traveling storyteller could earn a living? You always ask me how I can prove or describe what it means that Jesus is alive. What if I told you that it is as simple as embracing an admittedly illogical belief? How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 10:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 10:56 AM Phat has replied
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 12:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 67 (857921)
07-13-2019 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
07-13-2019 10:56 AM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
jar writes:
No belief is evidence of anything except that someone believes. A belief that Jesus is alive has no real meaning unless you can explain what that even means.
If it were explainable, people would have no need for belief. They would simply accept or reject the facts. The book clearly suggests that not everyone will believe. It even suggests that a minority will actually believe and a majority will reject Christ and/or His message. You always claim that Christianity is more about what a person actually does than it is on what they believe, so you have your excuse around that argument. Perhaps God would show mercy to an atheist with no desire to accept Jesus but who dutifully and perhaps even joyfully clothed,fed, encouraged, and edified the people with no strings attached.
Then again, perhaps God wants us to actually get to know His character...expressed to humans through a human.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 10:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 11:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 67 (857922)
07-13-2019 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by PaulK
07-13-2019 11:01 AM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
Thugzy writes:
Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies.
PaulK writes:
If so, you don’t seem too careful about which side you are serving.
how careful can we be? How do we really know which side is which?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2019 11:01 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2019 11:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 67 (857927)
07-13-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
07-13-2019 11:57 AM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
ringo writes:
If your god existed, he should be easy to prove: Pray for the sick and they're healed - every time.
But thats your arbitrary and fantasy based standard.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 12:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 67 (857934)
07-13-2019 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
07-13-2019 12:11 PM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
ringo writes:
It's the standard we use for everything else.
But you don't define God. Yes, I can hear some of you now...."Why Does God get a free pass in regards to logic, reason, and reality"?....well duh! God if God exists is not measurable nor applicable to the rigors of typical scientific observation. One does not simply make God up by definition. On the other hand, God is not some mysterious spook outside the realm of detectability. Seek and ye shall find...but on His terms moreso than yours. Stile, for instance claims to *know* that God doesn't exist...and objectively and rationally he is absolutely correct. It may well be, however...that some of the more logical minds among us are unable to connect with God due to a reservation of unbelief due to the facts at hand which they hold as the defining marker of such a relationship. Belief is the prerequisite for encounter and communion. God does not simply appear objectively and unabashedly to anyone and everyone...as you likely think He should do.
Perhaps the reason is that He reveals Himself on His terms and as He is...not as you imagine that He must be.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 4:55 PM Phat has replied
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 9:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 54 of 67 (857938)
07-13-2019 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
07-13-2019 4:55 PM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
The issue is not the Gods and gods and fairies and goblins in the books. The issue is who YOU believe God to be and why. If you simply imagine a mugwump as your choice for God, you likely wont find GOD. I believe though cannot prove that through Jesus every human can and will find GOD. Not through their own vain imagination nor logic and reason regarding human literary attempts t defining God. God is in the book, but I believe that He is not limited to the book---he is not limited to what humans say about Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 4:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 5:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 56 of 67 (857940)
07-13-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
07-13-2019 5:03 PM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
And that question is directed at everyone. Who do you say that I am?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 5:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 5:33 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 67 (857945)
07-14-2019 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
07-13-2019 5:33 PM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
What I mean is that that is the question that Jesus would ask everyone today. He represents the Creator of all seen and unseen. Or do you doubt that this is true?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 5:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 07-14-2019 7:29 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 67 (857959)
07-14-2019 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
07-14-2019 7:29 AM


Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
Maybe in your "club". You really have no place to define what is dogma and what is reality. You limit yourself to begin with by claiming that none of us can know if its God or not. You are your own problem in that area. Your intelligence places God in a box rather than freeing your perspective. Otherwise you seem to be doing ok, and fortunately He understands your reasons. AddByEdit: Allow me to further elaborate. Ive had coffee!
You limit yourself to begin with by claiming that none of us can know if its God or not. Within the context of Blub Christian, there are many clubs and many chapters and some of us can and do know that God is real. Jesus is alive. Now...how to prove this objectively? One cannot. Reason being that God does not allow Himself to be revealed objectively so that any layman can simply examine His merits as if buying a product.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 07-14-2019 7:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 07-14-2019 1:23 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 07-14-2019 2:10 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 64 by dwise1, posted 07-14-2019 2:27 PM Phat has not replied

  
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