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Author | Topic: The Case For A Creator | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
PaulK writes: Granted. Perhaps a valid line of questioning is to the motives as to why the books were written in the first place. Have people really belived that they interacted with God and that Jesus was more than simply a prophet? Or were the motives less honorable? Not all apologists are Biblical Inerrantists either. However jar has a valid point - there are real contradictions in the Bible. Why some people deny it - there’s a question. Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies. I believe that the origin of the spiritual awareness behind such a war is eternal...or at least before the creation/evolution of this planet and its human inhabitants. And I will admit that this is an irrational belief. I do not think it simply fantasy, however. I think that the whole story of Star Wars(mythos, if you prefer) is writ large. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
jar writes: I'll give you that. I can and have read much of what you say regarding the irrationality of Christian belief(basic CCoI version) in general. To wit:
The fact is that I do believe but don't try to pretend that it is not illogical, unreasonable and irrational. jar,addressing Stile writes: Lets test them. How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?
I would tend to agree with you that your position is the reasonable, rational and logical position.I happen to believe otherwise but certainly realize that my beliefs are unreasonable, irrational and illogical. jar writes:
I place the God whom I believe in above all else.
Remember Phat, the Bible itself describes man, plain old human type man, correcting God. We've been over this more then once IIRC.The Bible itself describes God as unsure, insecure, frightened by the prospects of plain old humans, unable to defeat a plain old human even by using deceit and trickery... Why do you insist on placing the God YOU create above the God other folk create? jar writes: GOD, if GOD exists simply is complete. God is a little more specific yet still amorphous. You can talk about The Christian God or the Hebrew God or the Hindu Gods or the Islamic God but that doesn't tell us much at all since there is still no such unique specific thing. Then we get to god where there can be specificity. There is the god from Genesis 1 and the god from Genesis 2 and Ganesha and Thor and Allah and the god Faith markets and the god Spruel marketed and the god MacArthur marketed and the god you like and Coyote and Turtle and ... phat writes: Also, do you believe that God, as marketed by Christians, is an improvement on the earlier ideas? jar writes:
What about the GOD (and the Jesus) that you market? Lets trot out the really tough questions! Again, there is no God marketed by Christians but only gods.And no, I do not think the god most Christians market is an improvement on anything. ringo claims that everything known and/or knowable about the Christian God and His Son Jesus Christ is contained within the book. Which would suggest that God (and Jesus) could never truly be alive within reality and within one's heart...were that true. So which is it? Which do you choose to believe? That God and Jesus are simply characters in a book. Tales of mythos told around campfires so that a traveling storyteller could earn a living? You always ask me how I can prove or describe what it means that Jesus is alive. What if I told you that it is as simple as embracing an admittedly illogical belief? How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
jar writes: If it were explainable, people would have no need for belief. They would simply accept or reject the facts. The book clearly suggests that not everyone will believe. It even suggests that a minority will actually believe and a majority will reject Christ and/or His message. You always claim that Christianity is more about what a person actually does than it is on what they believe, so you have your excuse around that argument. Perhaps God would show mercy to an atheist with no desire to accept Jesus but who dutifully and perhaps even joyfully clothed,fed, encouraged, and edified the people with no strings attached. No belief is evidence of anything except that someone believes. A belief that Jesus is alive has no real meaning unless you can explain what that even means. Then again, perhaps God wants us to actually get to know His character...expressed to humans through a human. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Thugzy writes:
Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies. PaulK writes:
If so, you don’t seem too careful about which side you are serving. how careful can we be? How do we really know which side is which? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
ringo writes: But thats your arbitrary and fantasy based standard. If your god existed, he should be easy to prove: Pray for the sick and they're healed - every time.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
ringo writes: But you don't define God. Yes, I can hear some of you now...."Why Does God get a free pass in regards to logic, reason, and reality"?....well duh! God if God exists is not measurable nor applicable to the rigors of typical scientific observation. One does not simply make God up by definition. On the other hand, God is not some mysterious spook outside the realm of detectability. Seek and ye shall find...but on His terms moreso than yours. Stile, for instance claims to *know* that God doesn't exist...and objectively and rationally he is absolutely correct. It may well be, however...that some of the more logical minds among us are unable to connect with God due to a reservation of unbelief due to the facts at hand which they hold as the defining marker of such a relationship. Belief is the prerequisite for encounter and communion. God does not simply appear objectively and unabashedly to anyone and everyone...as you likely think He should do. It's the standard we use for everything else. Perhaps the reason is that He reveals Himself on His terms and as He is...not as you imagine that He must be. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
The issue is not the Gods and gods and fairies and goblins in the books. The issue is who YOU believe God to be and why. If you simply imagine a mugwump as your choice for God, you likely wont find GOD. I believe though cannot prove that through Jesus every human can and will find GOD. Not through their own vain imagination nor logic and reason regarding human literary attempts t defining God. God is in the book, but I believe that He is not limited to the book---he is not limited to what humans say about Him.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
And that question is directed at everyone. Who do you say that I am?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
What I mean is that that is the question that Jesus would ask everyone today. He represents the Creator of all seen and unseen. Or do you doubt that this is true?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18654 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Maybe in your "club". You really have no place to define what is dogma and what is reality. You limit yourself to begin with by claiming that none of us can know if its God or not. You are your own problem in that area. Your intelligence places God in a box rather than freeing your perspective. Otherwise you seem to be doing ok, and fortunately He understands your reasons. AddByEdit: Allow me to further elaborate. Ive had coffee!
You limit yourself to begin with by claiming that none of us can know if its God or not. Within the context of Blub Christian, there are many clubs and many chapters and some of us can and do know that God is real. Jesus is alive. Now...how to prove this objectively? One cannot. Reason being that God does not allow Himself to be revealed objectively so that any layman can simply examine His merits as if buying a product. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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