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Author | Topic: Did the Flood really happen? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: In reality it wasn’t settled until Agassiz - the last creationist of any scientific stature - killed it off. And yes, Agassiz was doing science.
quote: In other words they were more sensible and didn’t go in for the daft idea of attributing pretty much all the geological record to the Flood.
quote: Of course the reality is not at all absurd. Even if we accept the characterisation of the strata as “slabs of rock” where else would buried remains end up ? In material that had become rock long ago ? In material that hadn’t been deposited yet ? Obviously they will be buried by material being deposited at the time they were buried. Saying anything else would be truly absurd. Fossils are found in areas where the conditions are more likely to occur. We have few fossils of chimpanzees since they live in areas where acid soil destroys remains, but many of marine creatures. And rarity is relative. It only means that the proportion of individuals that end up as fossils is low. That doesn’t mean that it cannot occur many times given large populations and long periods of time. I’d comment on the “consistency” but - as is often the case - it is completely unclear what you mean. If it is just the order then it should be consistent. There is nothing absurd about that. If it is anything else you haven’t said what it is.
quote: Because we should totally believe that a really humongous Flood can do anything and therefore it did everything. Again, if you react so badly to criticism why bring it upon yourself by posting obvious nonsense ?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
People all over the world have seen lightning and volcanoes and floods. That doesn't mean it was the same lightning or volcano or flood each time. Yeah but there isn't a universal lightning story or volcano story from all those cultures, as there is a flood story, a very specific story considered significant enough to be preserved. Despite the fact that lots of other floods happened all the time that they didn't feel needed to be preserved. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 618 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
But what you're describing is far more likely in a quiet little backwater with a lot of time for dirt and sand and debris and fossils to settle out slowly than in the aftermath of a catastrophic world-scouring maelstrom.
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Ever hear of science fiction? There are thousands of post-apocalyptic stories and they're all based on little apocalypses like the ones we see in the news every day. There has never been One Big Apocalypse that somebody felt the need to remember. ... a very specific story considered significant enough to be preserved despite the fact that lots of other floods happened all the time that they didn't feel needed to be preserved.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But what you're describing is far more likely in a quiet little backwater with a lot of time for dirt and sand and debris and fossils to settle out slowly than in the aftermath of a catastrophic world-scouring maelstrom. Odd then that it isn't confined to a quiet little backwater but is found in some form all over the entire planet.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: If you bothered to understand it instead if desperately trying to dismiss it maybe you would see that it isn’t absurd.
quote: As actually happens. There are places where deposition dominates over erosion today. It’s hardly absurd to suggest that was true in the past.
quote: To the extent that they had it. But if you evenly sprinkle loose material over a surface, and then compress it, it would tend to be pretty flat.
quote: Suggesting that unusual events never happen would be the true absurdity.
quote: When you say “identifiable” you mean that environmental changes affect the material deposited. And you think that is absurd ?I’ve already dealt with the flat surface. quote: And here is another case of you embarrassing yourself by being careless of the facts. My example - the Temple Butte Limestone - is one of the strata at the Grand Canyon. Edited by Admin, : Fix next to last quoted portion.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 618 days) Posts: 826 Joined:
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Zeus, Thor, Indra, etc. Why should different cultures all have a thunderbolt-throwing god?
Big floods are life-changing events, from Johnstown to the great Mississippi flood of 1927 to Katrina. They go back far into history: the Nile floods, the monsoons in south Asia, the tsunamis of the Pacific ring of fire, the Lake Geneva flood of the year 563, the Yellow River is known as "China's Sorrow" for the catastrophic floods that killed millions and scoured the countryside, changing the very landscape. Water is life and people live near water.
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JonF Member (Idle past 190 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
I thlnk the enormous weight of something like three miles depth of strata would have forced the water out of the lower layers and hardened them quite rapid
Alas, measurements of how fast water moves in rocks or lithifying sediments show the opposite. The pores through which the water must move are squashed down to being infinitesimal and water just cannot move through them quickly. You are also forgetting that lithification involves chemical reactions which are not noticeably sped up by pressure. Your second paragraph is all argument from your personal and ignorance-based incredulity. We work with evidence.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 618 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
Your use of the word "backwater" just shows how people are so often living near water!
So they would all have stories about a flood.
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JonF Member (Idle past 190 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
People live near water.
Which floods. And would appear as a global flood to people with no idea of the extent of the Earth.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Of course the reality is not at all absurd. Even if we accept the characterisation of the strata as “slabs of rock” where else would buried remains end up ? Why would they have to "end up" anywhere? Excuse me if I get a little gruesome here, but I've been reading and watching a lot of stuff about mmurder cases in which bodies are often disposed of in mountains and forests, and even if the victims are buried it's never deep enough to keep animals from digging them up and destroying them. If they are just on the surface they are destroyed by insects and microorganisms as well as animals. If they are found at all they are often found strewn all over the landscape and it doesn't take much time before there is nothing but bare bones, certainly not fossilized or in any condition to ever be fossilzed. Burial is not a natural thing that happens to dead things. You need special circumstances, and even if buried they aren't going to get fossilized without being saturated in mineral-bearing water and compression helps too, all conditions that are very rare in normal circumstances. But they are all conditions that would have been amply provided by the Flood. The remarkably uniform conditions in which we find all the strata of the geologic column miles deep, both the fossils and their stratified gravebeds. is really impossible to explain on the basis of time periods of millions of years and typical conditions of burial.
material that had become rock long ago ? Nothing gets buried in rock. What are you talking about?
In material that hadn’t been deposited yet ? What????
Obviously they will be buried by material being deposited at the time they were buried. Yeah but as I said just getting buried at all is far from something to be expected.
Saying anything else would be truly absurd. Fossils are found in areas where the conditions are more likely to occur. Oh for sure, but isn't it odd then that they occur so regularly and consistently in such uniform conditions that stacked one on top of another with such neat contact lines in so many cases and such very specific sorted out corpses, all stacked one on top of another miles deep? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Sometimes somebody does come along and overturn the established wisdom. In this case the "established wisdom" was the legend of the great Flood. Back in 1990, I wrote up an informal compilation of geological evidence along with a bit of history on CompuServe. Since I created my web site in part to repost my CompuServe articles, that one is also there: GEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE OF AN ANCIENT EARTH -- I used tags to keep the original formatting of the CompuServe material. My creation/evolution links page is at http://cre-ev.dwise1.net/links.html.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Ppeople who "live near water" have no reason to treat it as something significant in itself, or even periodic local floods that they could easily escape. It would have to be something of a huge magnitude they couldn't escape except by being on a boat, which wouldn't be needed if it was just a local flood. There's be no reason to memorialize anything less. And they didn't need to understand the extent of the Flood beyond their own experience to have handed down stories of something so catastrophic and inescapable they had to preserve its memory. They clearly didn't understand much but they knew that water once covered everything around their ancestors who could only be saved on a boat.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 190 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Lots of local floods require escape by boat.
They clearly didn't understand much but they knew that water once covered everything around them.
My point exactly. Water covering everything around them is several orders of magnitude short of water covering everything.
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Admin Director Posts: 13023 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.0 |
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