The Case For A Creator

There were a lot more than a "few" eyewitnesses to most of Jesus' miracles among other things. He fed thousands from a few loaves. He provided enough wine for a whole wedding feast etc etc. Mohammed had very little success with his new religion at first, but when he decided to impose it on the people at the point of a sword, slaughtering a whole village of Jews who wouldn't accept it, THEN it spread and is now the religion of the whole population.

You can't include all of those as eyewitnesses. They may have seen but they didn't testify. The only testimony we have is from the gospel writers themselves (who weren't necessarily eyewitnesses themselves).

Fair enough. The original believers were quite strong and pure, however...based on what they had witnessed. The mythicists throw pseudo facts out there to confuse the layman seeking truth, however. Granted the Christianity peddled by the imperial powers was watered down and adapted to justify secular conquests...that much I wont argue. Throughout the History of Christianity and Christians in general...very few believers were actually that strong in regards to the death to self and adoption of Jesus message and Spirit. There have been notable documented exceptions, however. And this wqould go in line with the many are called and few chosen theology. Its a theme carried forward from the Jewish people. In battle after battle they seldom had a numerical advantage. God likes to show off by using a few to change the world. Nowadays, the secular majority would prefer that our zeal be stamped out and that it is in fact causing more harm than good. We could discuss whether that claim has any validity.

But I surely would include some even if but a small minority. Perhaps the Upper Room contained them all. But there have been eyewitnesses of the power of the Holy Spirit throughout History. You would cry foul and call for objective verifiable evidence, as would Stile. We never will agree...you and us. But I need to get to work Safeway Beckons...

No, you can not include characters in the story as eyewitnesses to the story. That should be obvious. A storyteller saying they were eyewitnesses doesn't make them eyewitesses.And even if the event did really happen, you would not get thousands of eyewitnesses telling the same story. You'd get so many different versions that it would be impossible to tell what actually happened.

Boy. You just moved the goalposts so far that not only are they not on the same field they are not even in the same town anymore.
You admit your argument is wrong and come up with a completely different argument all together.

Differing events produce different degrees of eyewitness testimonies. If the observers themselves are unaffected by the event and it merely seems exciting or interesting to them,then yes there will be many versions of what happened. As an example, say a crowd of people see a man fall through the ice at a park. The man is incidental to most---some may feel sorry for the guy and some may have been interrupted while drinking their beer. Thus of course there will be many variations on what was seen and on what occurred.But what I am trying (unsuccessfully) to get through your thick skulls is that the event and events that I am describing are in fact life changing events for every single one of us. None of you are uninvolved. None of you are detached observers milling about the mall of ideas.None of you understand or believe this, which is puzzling though expected. The pont that I am making is that you will be affected by the events that earlier eyewitnesses testified about. The story is told not to sell copies nor entertain an audience. The story can arguably be told to manipulate and change public opinion and also be used to further the human agenda of imperial powers, as Theodoric asserts. The story stands or falls on its own merits.
The Gideons explain it this way:

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The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.
It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter. Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.
CHRIST is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.
It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

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The fact that you are unimpressed nor moved by the book and its contents is also noted. You are digging your own grave. The book itself is relatively simple. Pulling up contradictions and inconsistencies is simply human attempts at manipulation of interpretation of reality. My argument is ongoing. It is true that you often expose it for being weak or incomplete, but keep in mind that concerning goals and goalposts you and I have different goals. You seek to expose the purpose of organized religion as a sham, scam, and fraud. I seek to defend the statement that the Gideons say above, concerning the Bible:
CHRIST is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

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Differing events produce different degrees of eyewitness testimonies. If the observers themselves are unaffected by the event and it merely seems exciting or interesting to them,then yes there will be many versions of what happened

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Well it appears that we have no eyewitness testimonies for Jesus’ ministry.

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But what I am trying (unsuccessfully) to get through your thick skulls is that the event and events that I am describing are in fact life changing events for every single one of us. None of you are uninvolved. None of you are detached observers milling about the mall of ideas.

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We were not there. The events themselves are remote, likely touch us less than, say, the Battle of Actium. We are not even observers.

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The fact that you are unimpressed nor moved by the book and its contents is also noted. You are digging your own grave. The book itself is relatively simple. Pulling up contradictions and inconsistencies is simply human attempts at manipulation of interpretation of reality.

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The odd thing is that I heard that the Christian God is not a great fan of idolaters. Why should we unquestioningly believe what the Gideons say ? Why are we not allowed to study the Bible and find out that things are not quite as they would have us believe ?

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My argument is ongoing. It is true that you often expose it for being weak or incomplete, but keep in mind that concerning goals and goalposts you and I have different goals. You seek to expose the purpose of organized religion as a sham, scam, and fraud. I seek to defend the statement that the Gideons say above, concerning the Bible:
CHRIST is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.

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You are doing a very good job of making it look like a scam.

And what I'm trying to get across is that those "events" are not real events at all. The effect on the reader does not determine the reality of the events. People can be affected by fictional events as readily as by real events. Why do you keep lying about that? I have told you many times that I respect the book more than you do. I'm the one who quotes it to you and you're the one who rejects it. We're not talking about contradictions or inconsistencies here. We're talking about you flat-out contradicting what the Bible says.

I'll concede this point. You have won it. Hope y'all have a good rest of the day.

I think starting with "why is there something rather than nothing" and arriving at the answer "because there is a god" is a most illogical piece of thinking.Not because it's wrong. Who's to say it isn't? It's not falsifiable.But it doesn't provide any more knowledge to believe it.Same with the "Oooh, the universe has such a complex structure!"

Yeah, me too. Following that line of thinking, the next question is: why is there then supposedly a god rather than nothing? Lots of goddists then go on with special pleading arguments. That's it.

Chaplain: Let us praise God. O Lord...Congregation: O Lord...Chaplain: ...Ooh, You are so big...Congregation: ...Ooh, You are so big...Chaplain: ...So absolutely huge.Congregation: ...So absolutely huge.Chaplain: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.Congregation: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.Chaplain: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and...Congregation: And barefaced flattery.Chaplain: But You are so strong and, well, just so super.Congregation: Fantastic.Humphrey: Amen.Congregation: Amen.-- Monty Python's The meaning of Life

Of course the question could be reframed. Why is there an intelligence greater than humans which may or may not be friendly?

Really? That was never my intention. Thanks for the feedback though.