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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: etc. Are we not able to "look where the experts say we should look in an attempt to find evidence of His existence?"-the Sun -thunder, lightning -'heaven' in the clouds above the earth -cause of famines or bountious prosperity -source of love -punisher of evil -answers prayers -does miracles -author (perhaps by proxy) of the Bible - therefore the Bible should be true/valid (flood/exodus/water-to-wine...) -helps those in need -protects the weak -always there when you need Him -provides mental stability and mental strength ... ... One place that the experts may or may not mention is your own heart. If you have honestly looked and found nothing then you are 100% correct. You know that God does not exist. And being the nice and agreeable person that you are...your willingness to reconsider and examine your own views should more information become available... would say that someday you may well know that God exists. The evidence is internal. It is not objective and verifiable by humanity-at-large. Of course thats my opinion, anyway.
Stile writes: The evidence shows that some of us found Him...within their own hearts. Others never found Him. Still, others found no reason to look for Him. Free Will is a sacred thing. How long did we search-where-we're-supposed-to-look for God and find nothing? A few thousand years?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Essentially then what you are saying is that there *should* be no such thing as believers and non believers. Everyone would either accept the evidence or reject it. You examined it and rejected it and thus ascribe no right to "believers" to arrive at different conclusions than you did. Effectively God is a product of the human mind in your world view. I can only tell you that I believe you are wrong.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
We've been socially and traditionally taught that "God" (Christian or a non-observable deity or whatever) is a special case and He gets free passes left and right. The larger question is why you were unable to accept God.
I'm simply pointing out that there's no reason to give God a free pass, and if we don't - we end up knowing that God does not exist. or perhaps for you He simply does not exist. But not for everyone.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The evidence is the behavior of the believers themselves in harmony (or contrast) to the rest of us. Take spiritual warfare, for example. It sounds totally irrational and illogical...and im not even going to claim that angels and demons are real. But what I will do is share this Pastor with you. Study him carefully to see if he is otherwise rational or irrational.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I don’t think that preferring rationality to fantasy is subjective. But if that is the way you want to go, I guess you had better stop trying to pretend to be rational.
Hey I can fully agree! jar used to tell us that he was a believer yet there was no way he could justify his beliefs as rational, though he tried. He reiterated that his ideas about GOD (expressed through his belief in God) were most likely WRONG. I don't quite take that same stance. Look, I know that there is an argument against the "people of the kool aid". The Christian Charismatic "Flow" is easily recognizable. I can listen to a sermon for two minutes and discern whether the Pastor is "one of us" or not. I would claim that they are "in the Spirit" and that my discernment is in fact spiritual discernment. There are certain identifying factors. In fact, it would be a good topic spinoff.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How do you know its bullshit? Only because it doesnt line up with your standards? Your way of Biblical interpretation is the one that is way off. First of all, you assert that God is a made up concept within human minds. Then you go on to say that the stories do have value despite being mythos...and you trot out matthew 25 and proudly say that yes, yes we should give to the poor. Give till it hurts. You thus become the substitute for Gods parable in that you determine that according to humanist consensus, we should obey the character Jesus in the book. In essence what you have done is humanize the story of a Deity and substituted humans correcting humans. heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see you lobby for legislation for mandatory compulsive giving to help the poor. #Extreme Socialist My hope is that Jesus Himself will return and set you people straight along with the rest of us. Mandatory, indeed!!!!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
GDR writes:
I'm not saying that the processes can't have produced life. What I am claiming is the incredibly high degree of improbability that the processes themselves existed without an intelligent cause.PaulK writes:
The default position, in regards to "intelligence" is that humans are the most intelligent creatures, beings, or living cognizant beings thus far in the universe. Right or Wrong?
I would think that an intelligent cause would be far less likely. And your own arguments would tend to suggest that you should have an even lower estimate. But of course this is all rationalisation intended to support a predetermined conclusion. PaulK writes: No, he can't. And yet the claim is out there. Does anyone have an argument that refutes it? After all...the concept of Intelligent Design makes more sense to me than random chance. The only valid criticism of Intelligent Design is that it fronts for Creationism...but again whats so silly about the idea of a Creator?
And of course, you can’t substantiate your claim of “incredibly high degree of improbability” jar writes: Because that's where God belongs. Above human wisdom and intelligence. It wouldn't really make much sense to have a bumbling learning on the job Creator of all seen and unseen now would it? Remember Phat, the Bible itself describes man, plain old human type man, correcting God. We've been over this more then once IIRC.The Bible itself describes God as unsure, insecure, frightened by the prospects of plain old humans, unable to defeat a plain old human even by using deceit and trickery... Why do you insist on placing the God YOU create above the God other folk create?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: That's the jar I know! Realizing that at best, understanding the Creator of all seen and unseen is a crapshoot at best. The apologists claim that we can know Him by His Word, however. And yet you found that bumbling unsure character when you looked. Why didn't the rest of them find that?
I happen to believe otherwise but certainly realize that my beliefs are unreasonable, irrational and illogical.Stile writes: I suppose that to be fair, even a believer should be unafraid to approach some of these questions honestly and with a humble attitude that essentially says "No. No, I don't know for sure." I think that irrational ideas have a very important place in life. Even a small place in the expansion of knowledge (it has the possibility to lead curiosity into areas where rationality may not venture). I just don't think they have a place in saying whether or not we "know" things. I tend to assume that when someone brings up knowing something that they are talking as rationally as possible.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK,responding to GDR writes: It is interesting that some of my internet friends have accused me of the same thing that you point out that GDR does. I tentatively would conclude that it is more important for us as Christians to be right. To be absolutely certain that what we believe is valid. We are not mere scientists with critical thinking, throwing one God away and adopting another. I for one want my search for the Truth to be the Truth I believe in. It would be extremely cognitively dissonant to find another truth as the conclusion. The difference is that I am not the one indulging in obvious rationalisation. You are assuming your idea as the default, immune to examination or criticism. I am not.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Not that I need to justify anything to anyone...but I give enough. Jesus did not command everyone to give all they have. Zaccheus got away with giving part away..and I feel I should also. I need to retire, after all. Do you have room on your couch for me? This essentially sums up Biblical admonitions concerning giving:
Stop being such an asshole. You're turning into faith.I'm pointing out what Jesus fucking told you to do! You're spitting in His face. 2 Cor 8:13-15 writes: My only nitpick is what is meant by "left over"? Can I not have a bank account so that when I stop working some day I can still pay the rent? For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; 14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack -- that there may be equality. 15 As it is written, "He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack." NKJV Faith and I are different yet similar. Both of us think we are smarter than the rest of you in regards to Theology. She thinks that God essentially did this to science: 1 Cor 1:18-22 writes: She goes on to tear apart secular science---something I wouldn't do except in regards to the existence and reality of God and Jesus in particular---living eternally today.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.NKJV Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Its kinda like how hurt people hurt people. If someone were abused, for example they would be more likely to abuse others...without understanding their condition.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
God was only hurt necessarily and temporarily through the crucifixion. Humans get hurt through acts of violence,verbal and physical abuse, and psychological hurt perpetuated on them by other humans. You may well argue that religion itself caused a lot of this hurt, so you do have a case. My counter-argument would be that this is all a necessary part of the spiritual war.
As to why God needed to allow evil to exist and likely foreknowing that humans would fall in the hole, we can only speculate further and discuss. But right now i have to get ready for work. Safeway again beckons, and i'm off the next two days so our conversations can continue, God willing.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZP3 writes: I Love EvC! Christian hate apparently is wider spread than I thought. Is there anything human that you people don't hate? (I thinki we are human... *checks*Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Believers have a different outlook on life than you do. "The rest of the forum" is hardly in consensus. That is why we have debates here. Note the commentary from Philip Yancey's book:
Reaching for the Invisible God writes: Christians are not special. We all share the same human weaknesses..(sins, if you will) but Christians have a connection to the Creator of all seen and unseen, an idea scoffed at and ridiculed by secular humanist/atheists. And one noteworthy trait of Christians is their shared tendency to take their faith seriously and defend it often at great harm to personal reputation and expense. Yes, many Christians are fake and weak. Most of us, actually.
AS I BEGAN THIS book, I went to friends whom I respect as Christians. Some are leaders in their churches and a few have national renown. Others are ordinary citizens in the working world who take their faith seriously. I asked this question: "If a seeking person came to you and asked how your life as a Christian differs from hers as a moral non-Christian, what would you tell her?" I wanted to hear if their faith offered something besides the failures and unrealized dreams, perhaps some hope for transformation. If not, why even bother? Some people mentioned specific changes. "Because of God, I haven't given up on my marriage, despite huge unresolved issues," said one. "And my use of money is very affected, too-I look for ways to help the poor rather than just thinking of my own desires." A woman who had survived a scary bout with breast surgery spoke of her anxieties. "I can't help worrying. I worried about the cancer, I worry about my kids going astray. I know worrying doesn't help, but I do it anyway. Still, I have a kind of baseline confidence in God. Though it may seem deluded, I believe at a very deep level that God is in control. Some people call it a crutch, I call it my faith. For a crippled person there is one thing worse than a crutch, after all-no crutch." Another spoke of sensing God's presence, a feeling of not being alone: "I have to incline my ear and strain to hear God speak; sometimes he speaks best through silence, but he does speak." One man said he could only detect spiritual progress by looking backward. "I know if my house caught fire, I would rush to save my journal. It's my most valuable possession, a record of my relationship with God. There have been few dramatic moments, but there have been intimate moments. As I read my journal now, in retrospect, I can see the hand of God in my life." The author further elaborates: Contemporary author Eugene Peterson attended in his adolescence a religious conference where people met by a lake each summer. They had fiery spiritual intensity and used phrases like "deeper life" and "second blessing." As he watched these people's lives, however, he noticed little continuity between the exuberance at the conference grounds and everyday life in town. "The mothers of our friends who were bitchy before were bitchy still. Mr. Billington, our history teacher, held in such veneration at the center, never relinquished his position in the high school as the most mean-spirited of all our teachers."1-3 I mention these failures not to dampen anyone's faith but to add a dose of realism to spiritual propaganda that promises more than it can deliver. In an odd way the very failures of the church prove its doctrine. Grace, like water, flows to the lowest part. We in the church have humility and contrition to offer the world, not a formula for success. Almost alone in our success-oriented society, we admit that we have failed, are failing, and always will fail. The church in A.D. 3000 will be as rife with problems as the church in A.D. 2000 or 1000. That is why we turn to God so desperately. "The Christian has a great advantage over other men," said C. S. Lewis, "not by being less fallen than they, nor less doomed to live in fallen world, but by knowing that he is a fallen man in a fallen world."1-4 That recognition forms my starting point in undertaking a journey journey to know God. I include these quotes if only to show that many of these beliefs are expressed through sojourners far more experienced than myself or Faith or Dredge, etc. You guys can feel free to vilify the whole lot of us, but I can assure you that it will prove to be a major error in discernment and judgment in your lives.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: I certainly hope that you are right and that I am wrong. I believe that I am right but of course I could be wrong. And I can assure you, Thug, that your fairy tales will have no effect on me now or anytime in the future.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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