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Author | Topic: A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined: |
edge writes:
I would love my IQ to get into double figures! Alas ...
Hmm, I thought it was 19.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined:
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Percy writes:
Okay, thanks; I need to read up on this stuff - my ignorance is showing. (In the last few days I've been reading stuff on the talkorigins.org site - there's some really fascinating info there - the "tail" in humans embryos and ERVs in humans, for example. It strikes me as a very professional organisation.) Such problems are not due to mutation. They're due to the selection process. For example, some of the characteristics selected for in the German Shepherd were linked genetically to hip dysplasia. There is no hip dysplasia mutation. The alleles for hip dysplasia were already present in the wolf genome, but selection and inbreeding has made them more prevalent in the German Shepherd. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
I can see how exposing your ridiculous fantasies could depress you.
You claim to know all these facts? Where is the "rearrangement of existing alleles"? Where are those existing alleles hiding? I predict no substantive answer, because you have no idea other than vague hand-waving.
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JonF Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Name one of those "situations where multiple mutations would have to have occurred in a short period of time".
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JonF Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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Tangle's right about the peppered moth mutation. Dark satanic wings | Nature:
quote: The full article is at http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/...cortex_final_nfc2_figs.pdf. Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17914 Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
quote: In the context of the wider issue. I’ll take your refusal to discuss it as an admission that you have no real case.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1658 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... but if we approach every disagreement with Faith as if she understands all the words we're using in the same way as we do but pretending not to, we're never going to get anywhere. And after reading the last couple pages of posts, how is any other approach likely to work out? One approach that comes to mind is using the definitions instead of the words, that should add some clarity. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1658 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... it seems unlikely that a random mutation would just show up ... Not how it works. As Tangle said in Message 210 The moth did not change colour under 'pressure of need'. It changed colour because of a random mutation. The random mutation coincided with change in the environment that favoured it. It was all random, not purposeful. A coincidence. Forget purpose. Purpose has no part in the evolutionary process. To expand on this, mutations occur, randomly. When they are non-deleterious they can be preserved (you get a mixed population of individuals 'with' and 'without' mutation). If they are beneficial the individuals with the mutation propagate more favorably than individuals without the mutation, because they survive/reproduce better with the mutation. This "just show up" concept is a typical mistake for people that do not know evolution processes. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1697 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Seems to me if the mutation came along in time to save the population from extinction and start a new population to replace it, that's "showing up when needed" and that's too great a coincidence for me.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17914 Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
quote: The species was not in danger of extinction, although it would have had it’s range curtailed quite significantly. As I understand it there were always areas where the light colouration dominated. The fact that this is a single mutation, that the moth population seems to have been large, that there was plenty of time for it to occur - and the fact that many species have not been saved - makes this a plausible coincidence. These things will happen on occasion - probability says so.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1697 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm always being told I've "been told" this or that in the past, and here's another case where I'm "being told" something, but why should I take it seriously? Why should I believe you about anything? Why should you have the definitive word?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Faith writes: Seems to me if the mutation came along in time to save the population from extinction and start a new population to replace it, that's "showing up when needed" and that's too great a coincidence for me. The first thing to say is that it happened and there is an evidenced explanation for how. Secondly, for all we know the mutation is common but had it occurred when the trees where white the black moths would have died from predation. The predators would remove the mutation from the population. It was only when the trees turned black that the mutation could survive. This is shown beautifully when the pollution was cleared up and the black moths became visible to predators and the white moths took over. The problem you're having is that you ascribe purpose to everything so the coincidence is shocking to you because you only see the successful event not the failed ones. You do this all the time, the most notable was seeing everything as a potent of the rapture. But your alternative is what? God did it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Faith writes: I'm always being told I've "been told" this or that in the past, and here's another case where I'm "being told" something, but why should I take it seriously? Why should I believe you about anything? Why should you have the definitive word? We're just reporting the research. You don't need to believe any of us. Read the research papers for yourself. See if you can fault it. That's the way it works.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17914 Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
quote: Why should we take your assertion that the species was in real danger of extinction seriously ? And you certainly refer to things you’ve heard and expect us to take it seriously. Feel free to check any claim I make. I check your claims often enough. But then we have to because you have a record is misrepresenting your sources.
quote: If I wanted to have the definitive word I wouldn’t let people know I was relying on memory. I would check the facts and provide evidence.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17914 Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
I think it’s more to the point to consider the question of how many mutations might have provided the dark colouration. I would be surprised if it were only one. Melanism is not that uncommon.
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