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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 438 (853358)
05-26-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Tangle
05-26-2019 3:24 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Your god is supposed to intervene in our world. We don't see it.
Some of us do. Granted not all see it.
Prayers are supposed to be answered. They aren't.
Again...not all prayers are answered. Some are answered. Who suggested they all should be answered? After all, it is a valid question for a hypothetical God to consider.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 3:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 05-26-2019 5:16 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 222 by jar, posted 05-26-2019 5:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 5:48 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 224 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2019 6:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 225 of 438 (853367)
05-26-2019 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Tangle
05-26-2019 4:12 PM


Re: As An Aside...
The reason that i use the quotes from Quora is nbecause they essentiall articulate the basic arguments which i myself would use...and with better grammar than i likely would use.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 4:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 256 of 438 (853442)
05-27-2019 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by DrJones*
05-27-2019 1:32 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
Obviously, good Doctor. People believe what they believe for a variety of reasons. You guys point out that leprechauns are every bit as likely (thus as rational) as is God...but I would argue that I felt something with God that I did not ever feel with Leprechauns. I can't argue against ringos premise that there is no difference from an objective point of view but am essentially defending my point based on subjective experience. Quid pro Quo, Dr.Lector?(Jones)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by DrJones*, posted 05-27-2019 1:32 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by DrJones*, posted 05-27-2019 2:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 05-27-2019 2:18 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 260 by Tangle, posted 05-27-2019 2:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 277 of 438 (853513)
05-28-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by ringo
05-28-2019 11:39 AM


Re: God is all powerful and outside time and space
She is using the ideas in the book to support the contention that the book makes sense. I could state such a case better if I had more time, but im running around this morning. I always have time for coffee at the library in Saskatchewan, however. Be there in a few (and I'll bring spare change for the crew! )
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 05-28-2019 11:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Theodoric, posted 05-28-2019 11:52 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 05-28-2019 11:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 438 (853578)
05-29-2019 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
05-29-2019 6:57 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Because evidence is not the only tool that supports the possible existence or presence of God as we understand Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 05-29-2019 6:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2019 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 297 by jar, posted 05-29-2019 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 292 of 438 (853579)
05-29-2019 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
01-24-2017 10:44 AM


Re: One Top Many Paths
Ringo seems to think that it is impossible for the "Bible" to support the idea and belief in itself. I would challenge this assertion.
The proverbs of Solomon referred to a faithful king who would establish an eternal kingdom. A key characteristic of this ideal king was a fair treatment of the poor. This principle connects up with God’s promise to David that one of his descendants would establish a kingdom that lasts forever (2Sa 7:12 - 16). The problem was that Solomon and the rest of David’s descendants leading up to the time of Christ failed. Not one of them was the ideal king. Yet these disappointments only increased the expectation that someday a son of David would be the ideal king and establish an eternal kingdom. Isaiah 11:1 - 5 described that future king as the embodiment of Proverbs who is anointed with the Spirit of wisdom. The New Testament presents Jesus of Nazareth as that King. He is the Son of David who came ministering to the poor, and he was given the kingdom of David (Lk 1:32).
The king who judges the poor with truth, His throne will be established forever.
--~ ””Proverbs” ”29:14” ”NKJV””~
When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
13He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
14I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.
15But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.
~ ””II Samuel” ”7:12-16” ”NKJV””~
So we need to ask ourselves if Source is as important in philosophy and critical thought as is Content. Granted the Bible is a book of stories, parables, and human wisdom or the interpretation thereof. But is it more?
There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
3His delight is in the fear of the LORD, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
4But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
5Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist.”
~ ””Isaiah” ”11:1-5” ”NKJV””~
Some of the most amazing storylines throughout Scripture involve grace and forgiveness. Typically, when human reasoning would say that bitterness is warranted, God shows that his grace is enough. In this passage, David was extremely gracious regarding Saul. Rather than recount Saul’s shortcomings, David chose to honor him in this song. In spite of all that Saul had done to harm David, he did not hold these things against him following his death.
Likewise, through Jesus, God does not hold the sins of believers against them. When he sees them, he does not see the sin, but he sees Jesus. “As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us” (Ps 103:12). In many respects, David prefigured the grace and forgiveness of Christ, foreshadowing Jesus’ gracious response to people through all time. Even while suffering under the hands of his oppressors, Jesus responded with grace and forgiveness rather than employing the powerful wrath of God (Mt 26:53).
“Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?”
The deaths of Saul, Abner, and Ish-Bosheth removed major obstacles from David’s path to be king over Israel. David secured power in both the northern and southern territories as a result of Rimmon’s two merciless sons, Baanah and Rekab. After murdering Ish-Bosheth, these men expected a reward because they believed themselves to be agents acting on David’s behalf and the Lord. But they misread the situation, revealing that they did not know David’s values asking and were mistaken concerning the judgment and purposes of God. Ultimately, David understood that men like Baanah and Rekab could not grasp that the Lord redeems life and brings judgment on the wrongdoer.
Another example of this is found in Luke 9:51 - 56. Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem and opted to go through Samaria, where he did not receive a warm reception. The disciples were incensed, particularly James and John, so they asked Jesus if they should call down fire from heaven to consume the Samaritans. Jesus rebuked the disciples, whose understanding of retribution was mistaken. Jesus, like David, embraced even bitter rivals in love and forgiveness ” an embrace that he continues to offer to this day to those who deserve nothing other than retribution.
“Then the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, Rechab, and Baanah, set out and came at about the heat of the day to the house of Ishbosheth, who was lying on his bed at noon. And they came there, all the way into the house, as though to get wheat, and they stabbed him in the stomach. Then Rechab and Baanah his brother escaped. For when they came into the house, he was lying on his bed in his bedroom; then they struck him and killed him, beheaded him and took his head, and were all night escaping through the plain. And they brought the head of Ishbosheth to David at Hebron, and said to the king, “Here is the head of Ishbosheth, the son of Saul your enemy, who sought your life; and the LORD has avenged my lord the king this day of Saul and his descendants.” But David answered Rechab and Baanah his brother, the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, and said to them, “ As the LORD lives, who has redeemed my life from all adversity, when someone told me, saying, ”Look, Saul is dead,’ thinking to have brought good news, I arrested him and had him executed in Ziklag”the one who thought I would give him a reward for his news. How much more, when wicked men have killed a righteous person in his own house on his bed? Therefore, shall I not now require his blood at your hand and remove you from the earth?” So David commanded his young men, and they executed them, cut off their hands and feet, and hanged them by the pool in Hebron. But they took the head of Ishbosheth and buried it in the tomb of Abner in Hebron.~ ””II Samuel” ”4:5-12” ”NKJV””~
Thus I have shown that the stories in the Bible indeed can support the belief and ideology and hold their own with modern philosophical thought. Some of you folks seem to think that scientists are some sort of modern-day shamans who will unveil the truths of the universe to us. And yet you can't see the implications within the ancient stories of a living God interacting with humanity!
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-24-2017 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by ringo, posted 05-29-2019 12:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 313 of 438 (853630)
05-29-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
10-19-2009 12:01 PM


Re: Why Not God?
I addressed the topic with Stile earlier in the thread. I will continue that line of reasoning per your request, jar.
Stile writes:
I suppose part of my problem would be that I'm not sure how I could have identified such a relationship. Which, again, is kind of what this thread is about.
I certainly believed God was real, and I certainly believed I was talking and sharing with God and He was comforting and walking with me.
Then I reached a point where I could attain all the same (sometimes larger) feelings of self-confidence, comfort, elation, and peace without having to think of God.
Personally, I believe that meeting God is a one-time initial action. jar always asks how I would even know, but all I can say is that I do. Of course, in an empirical sense, I could be wrong, but I have enough faith that I will at this point in time stand my ground regarding my personal belief.
jar has always stated that the God He imagines is unconcerned whether we even believe in "Her" or not---but I believe that God wants a relational communion with each individual. Animals may feel this too, but we call that "instinct".
Stile writes:
Then I reached a point where I could attain all the same (sometimes larger) feelings of self-confidence, comfort, elation, and peace without having to think of God.
Personally, I prefer to use the term God Confidence rather than Self. It is good to have self-confidence, but perhaps the main difference between myself and others like you is that you believe that our selves and others are all we really have to rely on. It has been my experience that this is not the extent of the truth---but again, I can't objectively prove it.
I always teach it this way. Three Levels.
1) Knowing about someone.
2) Meeting someone.
3) Knowing and trusting someone for the rest of your life.
Stile writes:
I'm only saying that a relationship with God is not necessary for me (and likely others) to have a level of spiritualism that is equal to or surpassing the level of spiritualism that comes from a relationship with God.
What other spirits could there actually be? The human spirit? The secular zeitgeist? Woo?
Stile writes:
I don't think prayer's silly. I just think it isn't necessary. But, if prayer is simply "talking to God" (or attempting to), then I do in fact pray and continue to do so. I just never receive an answer. In which case I continue to ignore the concepts of God that people present to me without any reason to actually give them credence.
I think it is wise to not be swayed by other peoples ideas and beliefs, and I think that the fact that you do a form of prayer shows intent and that you will be rewarded for your intentions and actions as much as for your beliefs. Besides, I could never imagine a God who would judge people more on beliefs and confessions than over behavior and actions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 10-19-2009 12:01 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 10:00 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 318 of 438 (853723)
05-31-2019 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Stile
05-31-2019 9:28 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
I suppose that the questions we could ask at this point are the following:
Stile writes:
I can get that from anywhere.
What is it that we can get anywhere?
If God is offering this "eternal life" and seeks to give it only to those who trust Him, what would be the reason for such a condition?
And on a personal level, I could well ask myself this question: If there is nothing to any of this Holy Spirit stuff, why is it I have cried for 15 minutes straight at the last two services I attended? What else would have triggered such a reaction from me?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 9:28 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 10:37 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 330 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 11:43 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 319 of 438 (853725)
05-31-2019 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Tangle
05-31-2019 10:02 AM


Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave...
tangle writes:
There's obviously no benefits from god, if there were everybody would believe in him.
But the whole point is to allow us the freedom to question, doubt, and reject His benefits.
Which leads to the questions:
Why would God only help those who believed in Him and surrendered their own stubborn freedom to doubt and disagree?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2019 10:02 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2019 10:13 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 333 of 438 (853746)
05-31-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Tangle
05-31-2019 10:02 AM


Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave...
tangle writes:
There's obviously no benefits from god, if there were everybody would believe in him.
But the whole point is to allow us the freedom to question, doubt, and reject His benefits.
Which leads to the questions:
Why would God only help those who believed in Him and surrendered their own stubborn freedom to doubt and disagree?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2019 10:02 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 342 of 438 (853817)
06-01-2019 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by ringo
05-31-2019 1:59 PM


Did it ever occur to you that this so-called alien could actually help you?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 1:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by ringo, posted 06-01-2019 11:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 376 of 438 (854062)
06-04-2019 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by ringo
06-04-2019 11:58 AM


ringo writes:
You can fake loving somebody "in your heart". You can say, "Lord! Lord!" till the cows come home. But it's what you do with your hands that shows real love.
I would tend to say that it is in the heart and the hands. jar used to always preach that it isn't what you believe so much as it is what you do. And this makes sense...but lest I stray from my original point...
Theodoric writes:
This banter back and forth with GDR has exposed one of the biggest issues with religion in general and Christianity in particular. Anyone can come up with any interpretation of a god that fits with their particular needs and desires. Internally inconsistent and cognitively dissonant ideas and arguments, full of gobbledygook, are used in place of reasoned rational discourse to support their beliefs.
I'll grant you that.
CSLewis writes:
All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice, there could be no Hell.
ringo writes:
That's just egregiously stupid.
Not at all. You choose hell by default when you deny that Jesus exists. Of course, we can argue until the (Sacred) Cows come home that humans define morality rather than God...and neither side could prove their case. Let the record state that ringo dismisses CS Lewis as "egregiously stupid. In addition, my critics will argue that not only is Jesus a myth but that hell is a myth. Moving on...
ringo, in another topic writes:
Phat writes:
Why? Richard Carrier is in fact mentioned indirectly in scripture.
John 22 makes an unsubstantiated claim. It's basically saying that anybody who doesn't agree with John is a liar. That sounds just like Faith.
Let the record show that ringo also dismisses the author of the Gospel of John. Of course what should we expect?
I'll tell you what I think:
The facts show that our earth is a dust speck 93 million miles from the nearest star, 7 light years away from the next nearest one, of which there are an estimated one hundred billion stars in our galaxy and 100 billion other galaxies!! And yet...our esteemed secular humanist logicians state that they understand quite a bit of this observable known universe and that through the magic of math (which they believe to be eternal) the dimensions of the known universe can be measured. The reality, according to them, can be mapped and quantified.
Fair enough?
And yet this same bunch preaches that there is no God in this vast universe. God need not exist for all intents and purposes. And that people who believe in God believe in myths.
Math is said to be eternal.
And yet God likely does not exist.
See what the tree of knowledge did to us??

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by ringo, posted 06-04-2019 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 3:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 385 by ringo, posted 06-04-2019 10:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 394 of 438 (854214)
06-05-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by GDR
06-05-2019 3:46 PM


Tangle writes:
Middle of the road Anglicanism is exactly what I mean by playing the game to your own rules. Anglicanism is as near to agnosticism as makes no difference. It's the ultimate pick and mix belief system loosely based around a Christian myth. You are able to fluff every traditional Christian position, from heaven to hell, from omnipotence to original sin. (...)I see Anglicanism as the pathway the sane Christians are taking towards secularism and humanism so I'm all for it. But it's still total bollox and a distraction from doing more useful stuff with your time.
The question then becomes what is the most efficient use of our time while here on earth. Ringo seems to think we all should focus on doing...and that belief is irrelevant and, in fact, harmful. Tangle and Theodoric agree to some extent. Tangle, however, raises the stakes when he states to GDR:
You're interfering with another culture's belief system. Stop it, it's patronizing, evil and wrong - even if it's well meant.
Thus he is calling good evil and evil good, as scripture warns us about. Isaiah 5:8-21 warns us of excesses. It speaks of the sin that you naive humanists make against Christianity and the God whom you deny exists.
Isa 5:18-21 writes:
18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity,
And sin as if with a cart rope;
19 That say, "Let Him make speed and hasten His work,
That we may see it;
And let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come,
That we may know it."
20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!
NKJV
The haughty arrogance of the humanist/atheists is explained here:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnes's Isaiah 5:19 Bible Commentary
That says... - They add one sin to another for "the purpose of defying" God and provoking him to anger. They pretend that he will not punish sin; and hence, they plunge deeper into it, and defy him to punish them.
Let him make speed - Let him come quickly to punish.
And hasten his work - His punishment.
That we may see it - An expression of defiance. We would like to see him undertake it.
The counsel of the Holy One ... - His threatened purpose to punish. This is the language of all sinners. They plunge deep into sin; they mock at the threatenings of God; they defy him to do his utmost; they do not believe his declarations. It is difficult to conceive more dreadful and high-handed iniquity than this.
---------------------------
Which brings up several questions. You claim that "sane Christians" are heading towards secularism and humanism, correct? The implication is, of course, that the insane Christians such as myself teach that the world will never improve without accepting the Holy Spirit--through Jesus Christ, and surrendering to this necessary flow.
And if so, you are quite correct.
Secularism: the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.-- Make no mistake, I believe in the separation of church and state. What bothers me is when the state attempts to impose its own "religion" and code of ethics as a default for everyone. I will fight that one with my last dying breath.
Hopefully, the Democratic majority will never become an atheist majority. They can create their own rules in their own homes but not in mine.
Humanism:an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems. It all sounds good and well if we were in fact not in a spiritual war and if God was but a myth. He isn't. You will never convince us of this. Even if you silence me, God Himself will put you deceived and deluded (though well-meaning people) in check for all eternity.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : fixed spelling and punctuation errors

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 3:46 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2019 5:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 401 of 438 (854285)
06-06-2019 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by GDR
06-05-2019 7:50 PM


Patience Is A Virtue
I checked out the Kindle sample of that book. It is a good one! Patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit, and the early church was in no hurry to rush things. We all could learn from that today.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 7:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by GDR, posted 06-06-2019 6:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 402 of 438 (854286)
06-06-2019 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by ringo
06-06-2019 11:39 AM


Whom We Represent
Though actions are themselves where the rubber meets the road, some actions can have an effect the opposite of what was intended. If you buy a homeless guy a beer and he happens to be an alcoholic, for example...you have done little to help him.
As I reflect on my own aggressive behavior, I am reminded of the catchphrase of What Would Jesus Do?
Would Jesus simply buy the homeless guy a beer or would Jesus buy him a meal? Would Jesus charge him with shoplifting or would Jesus pray for him while overlooking the obvious sin of "Thou Shalt Not Steal"? Would Jesus annoy everyone at EvC Forum with a self-righteous attitude or would Jesus strive for humility and understanding? These sorts of inner dialogues are necessary on a daily basis.
Some would argue that we are responsible for our own behavior, and I won't disagree. What I will do, however, is to always ask myself what Jesus would likely do in any given situation.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 11:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 11:38 AM Phat has replied

  
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