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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 316 of 438 (853721)
05-31-2019 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by Phat
05-29-2019 3:41 PM


Re: Why Not God?
Thugpreacha writes:
...but I believe that God wants a relational communion with each individual. Animals may feel this too, but we call that "instinct."
We don't call that "instinct."
Instinct is the word we use to describe a no-thinking-required reaction to external stimulus.
Like pulling your hand away from a hot stove.
Or animals bolting from a loud noise in a forest.
I don't see what instinct has to do with feeling that God wants a relational communion with each individual - that seems better described as "a religious belief."
It is good to have self-confidence, but perhaps the main difference between myself and others like you is that you believe that our selves and others are all we really have to rely on. It has been my experience that this is not the extent of the truth---but again, I can't objectively prove it.
Differences exist all over the place.
But are there any benefits only available through God?
Perhaps you gain a benefit by relying on God.
If I gain the same benefit by relying on my self and others... that's my point... there is no benefit only available through God.
Perhaps relying on God is the only way Thugpreacha can obtain such a benefit.
-and I agree with this specific, individual point.
-just as it's possible that relying on my self and others may be the only way Stile can obtain such a benefit.
But... if we can both obtain the same thing, one with God - and the other without - then "the benefit" is not only available through God.
Thugpreacha writes:
Stile writes:
I'm only saying that a relationship with God is not necessary for me (and likely others) to have a level of spiritualism that is equal to or surpassing the level of spiritualism that comes from a relationship with God.
What other spirits could there actually be? The human spirit? The secular zeitgeist? Woo?
I'm not talking about other spirits. Although to answer your question anyway, "other spirits" could be mother nature, ghosts of ancestors, Gods from other religions, things we haven't identified yet... so many options other than "God" than I wonder why you even have to ask such a thing?
What I was talking about by "a level of spiritualism," though, is basically - mental health.
The ability to remain calm in a tense situation.
The ability to have conviction and move forward in a difficult situation.
The ability to face fears that others run away screaming from.
The ability to be steadfast and loyal to a system of morality that helps others people and refrains from hurting other people.
All the benefits and positive qualities anyone ever thinks of when they picture "a very spiritual person."
They can all be obtained without God.
For certain people, they can be surpassed without God.
For other certain people, only God can lift them to such levels.
The point, again, is that such levels are not restricted to revolving around God. It's quite possible (and easy) to obtain such levels, or surpass them, without God.
Thugpreacha writes:
I think that the fact that you do a form of prayer shows intent and that you will be rewarded for your intentions and actions as much as for your beliefs
You are welcome to your beliefs, and I hope they bring you comfort.
But, really, it's not anything I'm worried about. My own level of spirituality - which happens to not include God - prepares me quite well for whatever will happen.
-Maybe God will hate me and punish me - I am fully prepared for this and not scared
-Maybe God will love me and reward me - I am fully prepared for this and not scared
-Maybe God will ignore me - I am fully prepared for this and not scared
-Maybe some other entity exists instead of God and reacts in their own way - I am fully prepared for this and not scared
-Maybe no entity (including God) exists and something else happens - I am fully prepared for this and not scared
-Maybe no entity (including God) exists and nothing happens - I am fully prepared for this and not scared
-Maybe no entity (including God) exists and I simply cease to exist without knowledge of that event even occurring - I am fully prepared for this and not scared
I don't see how any other level of Spirituality could prepare me better for such possible futures.
And if I'm ever made aware of anything else - my Spirituality allows for me to adapt and incorporate it and grow even stronger anyway. That's nice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 05-29-2019 3:41 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 323 of 438 (853731)
05-31-2019 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Phat
05-31-2019 10:02 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Thugpreacha writes:
What is it that we can get anywhere?
Eternal life.
Or, at a minimum - the same claim/expectation/reliability of eternal life that Christians get from God and/or the Bible.
If God is offering this "eternal life" and seeks to give it only to those who trust Him, what would be the reason for such a condition?
I dunno.
Being a dick?
I can't think of anything I only give out to those who trust me.
I can think of many things I would only give out to those whom I trust... but that's not exactly the same thing, it's in the other direction.
To require that someone trusts you back before you do something... is being a dick.
-Like requiring someone to 'trust you' before you do something for them.
A non-dick would just do it anyway, as long as you trusted them... not requiring them to trust you.
Could be a little bit of a dick, or could be a great big dick - depends on how much that other person requires the thing you're going to do for them that you're holding back on.
If there is nothing to any of this Holy Spirit stuff, why is it I have cried for 15 minutes straight at the last two services I attended?
Nastalgia, culture, belonging to a group and personal experience.
For your example... "the group" isn't necessarily the others in that church. They don't even have to be around you - just as long as you have a feeling that you're part of "some" group.
They are some of the most powerful feelings people are able to have.
It's also the reason some people drink the Kool-Aid and kill themselves for nothing.
I personally wouldn't think it means anything significant other than - you're a human being doing things that almost all human beings do.
What else would have triggered such a reaction from me?
From you, personally?
I haven't the slightest clue. It would all depend entirely on your personal thoughts/feelings on your nastalgia, cultures, belonging to a group and personal experience.
Maybe nothing else could do that for you.
Maybe a few other things.
Maybe lots of other things.
I dunno.
I can get that way watching Simba make his father proud in The Lion King.
(Father/son/honour/respect things always get to me... not exactly sure why, I have a pretty good relationship with my Dad, but they just do...)
You may not think my Disney-watching-crying is "as powerful" as your church-going-crying.
But you are also not the judge of such things in an overall sense.
You are the judge for you.
I am the judge for me.
And everyone else is the judge for everyone else, individually.
How could we ever tell which crying is "stronger?"
What if I happen to actually feel more, but I'm slightly less of a physical crier? Does that make my experiences more or less powerful than yours?
What possible useful-difference/benefit could it actually create?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Phat, posted 05-31-2019 10:02 AM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 327 of 438 (853737)
05-31-2019 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by GDR
05-31-2019 10:28 AM


GDR writes:
Without getting into everyone's arguments how about one benefit being the fact that I exist.
How is that a benefit only available through God?
I exist.
I don't require God in order to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 10:28 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 11:39 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 331 of 438 (853742)
05-31-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by GDR
05-31-2019 11:39 AM


GDR writes:
That is your belief and my belief is that we do.
Okay.
So which of us is receiving a greater benefit?
How could we possibly tell?
Again, the original question assumes the existence of God.
1. I don't think it does.
2. I'm the writer of the original question.
3. Who cares what the original question may or may not have assumed? Your question is not the same question as the original, is it?
I agree that "If God exists, and the only way for people to exist is through God... then existing is a benefit only available through God."
But that's a silly, useless, circular point to make, don't you think?
Wouldn't a deeper, more significant question be whether or not your believing in God that we exist is 'better' than my not-believing-in-God that we exist?
I think it is, and I don't see how we can come to any other conclusion than "they're the same."
Your way is better for you.
My way is better for me.
Nothing 'greater' about it in either direction.
Which is the point of this entire thread.
Edited by Stile, : Added initial quote
Edited by Stile, : Because grammar good I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 11:39 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 12:17 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 340 of 438 (853765)
05-31-2019 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
05-31-2019 12:17 PM


GDR writes:
Either way it is simply belief. It isn't about knowing in the scientific sense.
That's fine for this thread.
Of course, if you want to get into How Stile Knows God Does Not Exist... you can always take it over to this thread:
I Know That God Does Not Exist
I agree about it being a better question.
Thank-you for accepting my interpretation of my own words.
Now we can move along.
My answer would be that believing is a better conclusion.
How so?
It seems that believing is only a better conclusion for GDR and those who think similarly enough to the way GDR thinks.
But it does not seem to be a better conclusion for Stile, or those who think similarly enough to the way Stile thinks.
If there is no god then our existence is ultimately meaningless. You live you die, you procreate but in the end there will be a nuclear holocaust, the sun will burn out, we'll get hit by an asteroid or whatever, but this world will come to an end and ultimately it is pointless.
...according to GDR.
But, according to Stile, I have no such fears of pointlessness.
In fact, I find more pointlessness in being created by a God than I do in determining my own purpose in life.
I agree that if you have such fears... then believing in God can be a benefit for you.
But if I don't have such fears... why do I need such a "benefit?"
If I have similar fears about ultimate purpose - such as "If I was created by a God, that really turns this life into a bit of a mouse-and-cheese maze... but I want to be more than that - I want to be completely free to create my own purpose - free of all Creator-Gods"
-Then believing in God is actually detrimental to me.
-And by creating my own purpose, and not involving God in any of it - I obtain the same benefit for myself that you receive from God for yourself.
However if there is a loving God as personified in Jesus then there is a point to our existence.
You forgot the words "...for GDR."
This actually lowers "the point of Stile's existence." It makes things worse for me.
When we work and donate to impoverished countries, when we campaign to stop pollution etc. it does ultimately matter.
I fully agree with this statement - although I do not involve God or any Creator in any way.
Our lives do have an ultimate purpose and I'm not just talking about a personal afterlife.
Again - I fully agree.
And again - I do not involve God or any Creator in any way.
So what is the benefit here that cannot be obtained without God?
I don't see any.
I just see a man identifying that GDR, himself, would have less benefit without God - but this same man is unable to comprehend that, perhaps, not everyone thinks the same way he does.
I take it you wouldn't be surprised if you and I have two different favourite colours?
Why then, do you appear so unable to understand that you and I have two different favourite solutions for life's big unknowns?
Also, I am not suggesting that only Christians or theists of any label live altruistically.
I didn't think you were.
I have an atheistic member of the family. I have told her that she is more Christ like than many Christians I know.
That's nice to know, but doesn't affect my thoughts about the matter in any way.
"I have black friends" doesn't make anyone any more or less of a racist - you're a racists if and only if you hate groups of people for simply being in that group.
"Having an atheist in the family" doesn't make anyone any more or less willing to identify Christians as morally superior to atheists - you only do so if you think Christians are morally superior to atheists.
And, if you thought such - I would assume that would be your first message in this thread anyway (that a benefit obtained through God would be 'moral superiority.')
Edited by Stile, : Gramma lamma

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 12:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:48 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 366 of 438 (853969)
06-03-2019 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by GDR
06-01-2019 5:48 PM


GDR writes:
However, I would contend as a Christian that I am only able to choose the loving thing because God loved me first and that any loving thing I am able to do is just that I am reflecting God's love into the situation. I would also add that I strongly disagree that the point of Christianity is personal salvation. The point of Christianity is personal vocation. Yes, the Biblical message talks about the renewal of all things under Christ, but where you or I fit into that is God's business and not mine. Our vocation is simply to be loving stewards over creation.
Fair enough... and what is the benefit from all this?
I would assume the benefit is that you feel you are "doing what you're supposed to be doing" or that you feel "like you fit into this strange world as you find your place."
Such benefits do not require God.
I obtain such benefits by creating my own purpose - without involving God at all.
GDR writes:
However if there is a loving God as personified in Jesus then there is a point to our existence.
Stile writes:
You forgot the words "...for GDR."
This actually lowers "the point of Stile's existence." It makes things worse for me.
How can it make things worse for you(?)
Like I said - obtaining "a point to my existence" through something external such as "because there is a loving God as personified in Jesus" reduces life (according to my subjective thoughts/feelings/experiences) to a mouse-and-cheese maze.
I'm the mouse (I exist), I'm supposed to chase the cheese (the point to my existence because there is a loving God as personified in Jesus.)
This is not meaningful to me.
This is following instructions to me.
A robot can follow instructions.
I can think for myself and create my own ideas.
For me, it is more powerful if I create my own "cheese."
For me, it is more powerful if I create my own "maze."
For me, it is more powerful if I create my own "mouse" (my own mental architecture) even.
Therefore... obtaining a "point to my existence" because "there is a loving God as personified in Jesus" lowers the point of Stile's existence.
Therefore... even if this was true - I would have to reject this purpose and obtain my own.
Perhaps the one I develop will be similar - perhaps not.
The point is that it comes from me... it benefits Stile greatly. But if it comes from someone else (God, Jesus... anyone...) it lowers the point of Stile's existence.
(According to Stile.)
And... since Stile is me... I am the only one that matters concerning my own subjective issues like "purpose" and "feeling positive benefits from things."
If I can assume that you are, or have been a loving parent in your life, then isn't it better that that act of love has a positive effect on creation both now and into an eternal renewal of creation, than simply the effect it has on your descendants for a few generations?
Absolutely not.
This is true for many "acts of love" - yes.
But this idea of creating humans - thinking, imagining, idea-creating beings - with a specific purpose in mind... that is not "an act of love" towards Stile.
It may very well be an act of love towards GDR and many others.
But it is, actually, an act of oppression towards Stile and many others.
A parent's job is to prepare their children for life so that their children can have their own life independent of the parent - make their own choices, discover their own priorities, develop their own purpose. Only then can the child (hopefully) return to the parent and have a real loving relationship - one that is freely pursued by both parties. Anything less... anything involving direction from the parent onto what the child's priorities "should be" leads into an act of control and pride from the parent.
What would be truly great (for Stile), is if "that act of love" (a loving God as personified in Jesus) was not done in order to provide "a point to our existence..." but was simply done so that we could exist "however we so choose." Like those who died in WWI and WWII - attempting to provide freedom for us. Not a specific type of freedom... but whatever freedom we decide on as individual people who can make our own choices.
For Stile - that is a far greater love than a love that comes attached with an intended purpose.
I much prefer love with no strings attached rather than love with conditions.
I think that the argument can be made that many people, such as Tangle's friend, do find solace and comfort from the belief in a specific deity, in this case the Christian god. That is a benefit for many although not for you.
Absolutely.
I've agreed to this many times.
Belief in a God can be a strong benefit for GDR or Tangle's friend, or anyone else who thinks in a similar fashion.
It's just not a strong benefit for Stile.
But... what is the actual benefit?
Strength of character?
Consolation in times of deep trouble?
A calm mind in times of deep confusion or pressure?
Those benefits may be obtainable for GDR through God.
They are not obtainable for Stile through God.
But... those benefits are not "only available through God."
Stile obtains those benefits by other means.
I have strength of character.
I have consolation in times of deep trouble.
I have a calm mind in times of deep confusion or pressure.
All without involving God.
I obtain such benefits through understanding that some situations are out of my control, and the best way to deal with them is to do what I can - or accept that I cannot do what I cannot do.
GDR writes:
Ultimately though it all boils down to Pilate's big question.
I think, here, you've started talking about something else.
I'm not sure the "it" you refer to here has anything to do with "what benefits are only available through God."
What is truth?
I don't find that to be a particularly difficult question.
Truth is reality - that which actually exists.
The big question is actually "how do we identify truth?"
Is there a good and loving god? Did Jesus perfectly embody the wisdom and nature of God? Did that God resurrect Jesus?
These are not large questions to me at all.
If fact, they are incredibly insignificant questions.
If they were answered in one direction or the other - it would not alter much about my state of mind or my personality at all.
Sort of like the search for extraterrestrial life that's ongoing... it's interesting, and something to discuss around the water-cooler at work.
But answers in one direction or the other isn't going to change the way I love my family or prioritize loving others over hurting others. My "checklist" in my mind on how to make decisions isn't really affected one way or another.
If what I believe by faith to be true then there are benefits, including life itself, that are only available through God.
I still admit that if God created life and humans and He was the only one who could do so - then living is a benefit from God.
Just as if Odin created life and humans and He was the only one who could do so - then living is a benefit from Odin.
...but those are some really big "ifs."
Both equally as unlikely, as well.
Of course, even if true, once we go beyond that... within living our lives... there still doesn't seem to be any benefits that are only available through God - and so the core of my question would remain anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 2:20 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 377 of 438 (854065)
06-04-2019 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by GDR
06-03-2019 2:20 PM


GDR writes:
I find the initial question ambiguous. I think if it had been "What benefits are only available through belief in God", then it would be clearer.
Ah... yes, I see the problem now.
It is difficult for a non-believer like me to anticipate all the subtleties that a believer's mind can interpret.
I tried my best, and slightly missed the mark.
I agree that your "through belief in God" correction should be clearer for anyone coming from a "God created everything" background to get the idea I'm looking to discuss here.
I frankly am not looking for any particular benefit.
This thread wasn't intended to imply that most Christians think they are superior to others.
It also wasn't meant to imply that anyone "should be" after benefits when looking for a particular world-view.
This thread's intention is simply to touch on the subject of the claim some propose that God provides something for believers that others simply cannot ever hope to obtain without God.
I've never been able to identify such a thing.
So, I can't be specific about anything available through God for Christians that isn't available to everyone.
I think that's healthy.
I contend that for some, such as Tangle's relative, that Christian belief gives them a particular peace that they might not have otherwise, and presumably it would be for me as well when I get to that point in life.
I certainly agree.
Just as there are some (like me) who get a particular peace specifically away from the Christian belief, one that cannot be obtained (for me) within a Christian framework.
I would point out though, that if I am correct in my beliefs then the peace that you get is actually from God whether you, or anyone for that matter, recognizes it or not.
I am forced to agree again.
Of course, the reverse is equally valid:
That if God does not exist, then the peace Christians feel "through God" is actually a manifestation of their own mind simply convincing themselves with a comforting idea. Like a security blanket or Dumbo's "magic feather." Regardless if they recognize it or not.
I know that the majority of people on this forum will disagree strongly, but I do not have the faith to believe that those feelings emanate from a chance collection of mindless particles.
I just don't see how that phrase accurately represents what anyone thinks along the ideas of natural creation and eventual evolution without God.
I don't think anyone thinks people came about from "a chance collection" of anything.
Evolution includes the filter of natural selection. Natural selection removes "chance" and replaces it with "this must work - or it dies" as well as "if this is significantly better, it will kill of the weaker and leave only the improved."
Therefore, I do not find your description accurate to the reality we understand.
On top of that, I don't personally see a problem with "mindless particles" coming together to form an actual mind.
Just as I don't see a problem with "CPU-less circuits" coming together to form an actual CPU of a computer.
But such a discussion is getting away from "benefits only available through belief in God" and is better in another forum.
So I will "agree to disagree" here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 2:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 5:08 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 418 of 438 (854542)
06-10-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by GDR
06-04-2019 5:08 PM


GDR writes:
I would agree that a non-Christian could find that same sense of love and peace and feel the same emotions, but what they would miss out on would be the sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and its creatures.
"...they would miss out on the sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and it's creatures."
I don't see that to me missing out on anything at all.
Why would I need God to be in this world?
-I'm perfectly happy within this world without Him.
Why would I need God to care about this world and it's creatures?
-I'm perfectly able to care about this world and it's creatures without Him.
I understand how some people may get benefits like sense of fitting in, of belonging, or of 'being cared for or loved' because of this.
-But I'm perfectly able to have a sense of fitting in, of belonging, or of 'being cared for or loved' without God involved.
So what part about 'having a sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and it's creatures' offers a benefit that cannot be obtained without God?
Not "cannot be obtained without God for all people..." I admit that such a things doesn't exist. Just as I'm claiming that "benefits from God" do not exist for all people.
Just a benefit that exists that some receive from (or through) God... that cannot be obtained without God.
Also, one other benefit to me specifically, was that I found life went a lot more smoothly for me when I became a Christian. I found that working at following God in my life was much easier than try to be the person that would be approved of by others in my life. God seemed a lot easier to please. I found that by living that way, my relationships with others went more smoothly and in general life just became more pleasant.
A fantastic example of how God is very helpful to some people.
That is just my experience and wouldn't necessarily hold true for others, and in fact could be very much the opposite for them.
Exactly. People like me, for instance.
In fact, my life started going a lot more smoothly when I understood atheism. I began acknowledging people and situations for what they were... not as if some "external force" was acting upon them. It simplified things to a point where I felt comfortable in any situation. Everything simply became more pleasant.
It seems like this is another benefit that can be obtained without God.
GDR writes:
Stile writes:
Just as there are some (like me) who get a particular peace specifically away from the Christian belief, one that cannot be obtained (for me) within a Christian framework.
I accept that, but can you be more specific or give an example?
As I said:
The idea that Jesus or God exists and is providing purpose for us is a negative for me. It brings me worry and fear. I do not like the idea of being created for a purpose by a supreme being. I find the idea controlling and it gives me a sense of claustrophobia. It makes me feel like our lives are set up as a mouse-and-cheese maze. The cheese being the purpose God or Jesus provides for us, and us being the mouse.
I feel much more relaxed and comfortable with the idea of imagining my own cheese, my own maze, and my own 'mouse' (me) even.
Look at the universe within the first seconds after the BB and think about the likelihood of conscience life as we know it forming from what existed then, without any intelligent input. I don't require an answer.
I would say the likelihood, to me, seems incredibly dim and practically non-existent.
But I would also say that this question, and my judgement, are inconsequential to me.
1. I don't know much about Big Bangs and what they should (or should not) look like in having "a likelihood of future conscience life."
-I've been in many, many situations where I think something is incredibly unlikely... then it happens... and then I educated myself of the situation... and then I realize that the thing was actually very likely to happen - I just didn't understand it originally.
-Like my experience in learning to drive a car. My parents were very conservative with such things - I never got to 'drive in a parking lot' or 'up and down the driveway' or have any other steering-wheel-to-wheels experience before turning 16. I was terrified of attempting to drive. To me, it was "incredibly unlikely" that I was going to be able to control the wheels of the car by the steering wheel. Riding my bike was fine, I was adept at that. But I could see the tire of my bike... I couldn't see the tires of the car. Then I tried it, and it was easy. Then I did some more thinking and realized that almost everyone drives - therefore it can't really be all that hard. I should have known better. But I didn't.
-My current understanding of things (especially those which I know I don't understand very well) does not affect the reality of things.
2. We are here.
-Therefore, regardless of what "the likelihood" of us eventually evolving while looking at 'seconds after the BB' actually is...
-Also, regardless of what I think "the likelihood" of us evolving from while looking at 'seconds after the BB' actually is...
-It happened. And that is all I need in order to be here, and think, and love, and live. All without God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 5:08 PM GDR has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 421 of 438 (858960)
07-26-2019 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by Phat
07-24-2019 2:50 PM


Thugpreacha writes:
...everything I remember about the experience (which is ongoing, by the way) showed me that this path was something new...something I had never experienced before.
So what about this do you think is only available through God?
Do you think that no other person has every had any experience that showed them something new... something they never experienced before?
I assure you, it happens to almost everyone at least a few times in their life.
Some more often than others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Phat, posted 07-24-2019 2:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 430 of 438 (860275)
08-06-2019 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Phat
08-03-2019 2:26 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Thugpreacha writes:
To me that's an error in thinking. We are not our own spirituality. One simply does not use spirituality to grant themselves anything.
If you believe spirituality comes from God - of course.
But then the question remains - how do we compare if Stile's spirituality from God or Stile's spirituality from other sources is 'better?'
I propose that it's by judging the power in the sensing of spiritual ideas that one feels: happiness, comfort, peace, solace...
If you'd like to provide another method, feel free to make a suggestion.
So is Boyd lying?
I don't think so.
Sounds to me like Boyd has very little experience with trauma-victims and/or the resulting mental states it can cause and/or mental illness even.
I don't have a lot of experience myself - but even from my little experience, I don't find the situation suggesting demons or Gods in any way.
Just trauma, victims, coping mental states and/or mental illness.
I realize that anecdotal stories and testimonies do not truth make, but I have heard enough of these anecdotes to consider them.
Have you researched trauma, victims, coping mental states and/or mental illness at all?
I'm not attempting to make the point that it's one or the other.
My point is that one can just as easily explain it as the other - and if you're focusing on one over the other - it's telling about your bias more than anything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Phat, posted 08-03-2019 2:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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