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Author | Topic: What Benefits Are Only Available Through God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: If there is no god then our existence is ultimately meaningless.ringo writes: I don't see it as being imposed. We can accept that the meaning of the hope for our world is that the fundamental characteristic of our world would be sacrificial love for one another and for all of creation. I think most of us here would sign on to that. However, it isn't imposed, we are completely free to reject that and live out lives based on self love and the gaining of personal wealth and power, and of course, everything in between.
I think "meaningless" is preferable to a "meaning" imposed by an alien overlord. ringo writes: There's a good prairie illustration. I think that cows would find meaning in moo-ving on into a recreated world where the wolf lies down with the lamb, and by extension the cow. The "meaning" in a cow's life is to be food for us. Don't you think a cow would prefer to find its own meaning?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: That is only conclusive if you require that I agree with an inerrantist understanding of the Bible.
It's a conclusive argument and you know it. If for no other reason than your book tells you that your god has created at least two paradises that don't include suffering - Eden and Heaven.Tangle writes: Once again you are assuming a fundamentalist position. We are created with the freedom to make our own choices, good or evil - sick or well.
And surely you must know that's utter shite. It can't make any sense at all even to you. This is Hitch's “Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick, and commanded to be well,” Just logical nonsense.Tangle writes: I hope I don't too, and if it was legal at it would be a good thing for me in that case, but I still maintain that it would be a terrible thing overall for society. You'd better hope you don't finish up like my relative - begging to die.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tanypteryx writes: Yes, and most of us do, however, over time things become acceptable in society. As I said, with an aging population it will IMHO, become common for someone who is living in a home to be encouraged by medical people or even family; to encourage people to take that route.
We may be capable of going down the wrong road, but we are also capable of resisting our baser impulses. Tanypteryx writes: How would you know that? No one is going to admit that they had pressured someone in to allowing themselves to be euthanized. There will never be statistics on it. The only statistic that you might be able to get is to see how many people were euthenized. It certainly won't support anything that would back up your claim. Oregon passed its "Death with Dignity Act in 1997 and so far none of the things you worry about have happened. In Canada for years now we have had palliative care for people near the end. At the end the often will up the level of morphine to ease pain and even cut of nourishment to facilitate the passing people painlessly. WE haven't needed a law on the books to deal with situations like that. Sure, it doesn't catch everyone, and people like Tangle's relative continue to suffer, but I'd venture to say that it catches the majority of people nearing the end. Totally off topic, I'd like to know what type of insect it is that you have pictured there. I was just out on the patio reading a book and one just like that landed on my book mark and I was wondering what it was. It looked just like that except that the tail, (or whatever you call that part), was red, and interestingly enough it was pulsing making it look like it had a heartbeat.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: Maybe it was a dragon fly. It just didn't look like any one I had seen previously. Didn't you ever see dragonflies when you were a kid?But I'm sure Tanypteryx will know just what species that red "tail" identifies. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tanpteryx writes: My avatar is a dragonfly called Tanypteryx hageni. People are reporting a red one called Sympetrum illotum in BC right now. It is usually the first Sympetrum to be seen in the PNW in Spring. If you google the name you may be able to confirm that is the species you saw. The pulsing of the abdomen is breathing. Insects pump air in and out through holes in some segments called spiracles that are hooked to a network of tubes called trachea that facilitate gas exchange with all the cells of the body. So their respiriatory system is separate from their mouths and their circulatory system. That was definitely it. Beautiful little creature. Thanks so much.
Tanypteryx writes: In Oregon, the act specifies that the person must be under a doctor's care and terminal. We have advance directives and hospice care, but this gives a person control of their own body and destiny. The patient has to be able to communicate and make their wishes clear. We also allow an advance directive to dictate whether a patient can be revived or hooked up to medical equipment to keep them alive. If coercion is going to happen, it can happen just as easily without the Death with Dignity Act. Terminal patients commit suicide on their own without a doctor's care, so I don't think your reasoning is sound. This just gives an individual the option to make this decision rather than doctors or you or the government forcing them to hang in there no matter what. It all sounds very clinical and very reasonable and may well work for a while. Also, coercing someone to agree to being euthanized is very different than coercing someone to commit suicide. However, I don't believe for one minute it will end there. It is like so many other things. Look how things have advanced since making abortion legal.
Advocating for infanticide in US Nobody wouold have envisioned this initially. It too was a slippery slope. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Not as our final destination. Going to a spiritual heaven is Platonism not Christianity.
You don't believe in heaven?Tangle writes: Actually I don't believe that He can in this life. In this life it would require the removal of free will, and entropy seems to be a consequence of 'the flow of time. However, I do believe that suffering and death are not part of the next life with the renewal of all things.
Or that your god could end suffering and death if he so wished?GDR writes: Once again you are assuming a fundamentalist position. We are created with the freedom to make our own choices, good or evil - sick or well.Tangle writes: I assumed that the way that your previous post read that you meant sick or well to be referring to our thinking. Of course we can't choose sick or well healthwise. Both those statement are false. We are obviously not free to choose to be sick or well and we do not have equal freedom to do good or evil (we are not born with equal genetic makeup, opportunity, propensity, environment or upbringing.) Also of course there are numerous factors involved in our life choices when it comes to choosing good or evil, but no one always chooses the good thing and nobody always chooses the evil thing but we still have the freedom to make those choices. I agree though that it is certainly easier for some than others due to the factors you mentioned.
GDR writes: I hope I don't too, and if it was legal at it would be a good thing for me in that case, but I still maintain that it would be a terrible thing overall for society.Tangle writes: We can go back again to choices. I might hope that it will be available for me at some point, but I contend that it is wrong for society so I would be making the selfish choice by campaigning to make it legal. Interesting that all of a sudden you are the one to decide what is Christian. Good for you but others can't be trusted? That's no way to run a society. Nor is it Christian.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Frankly I have no idea of whether or not God could have created existence from scratch where everyone would always make the loving choice. However, if He could and if He did, it would be a world of moral robots. If however we have already made the choice of wanting a world based exclusively on the "Golden Rule" then it is another matter entirely.
The point, of course, is that god, according to your belief, can create a place without suffering. So why build one with?Tangle writes: I did not say that I would campaign for it. I did say that it would be selfish of me to campaign for it, with the obvious implication being that I wouldn't do that,as it would be wrong for me to do so.
You're a giant bag of paradoxes! It's wrong but you'd campaign for it? GDR writes: Interesting that all of a sudden you are the one to decide what is Christian.Tangle writes: Fair enough, but I don't feel that either one of us are an authority on what is Christian and what isn't. I completely accept that you are a cultural Christian although I don't see that baptism has anything to do with that. I don't see though that being a cultural Christian is the same thing as being a Christian. It seems to me that being a "Christian" does mean that one accepts some basic tenets of the faith, beyond the Golden Rule. I'm just as much a Christian as you are. I was baptised a Christian, I have Christian values and know what the book says about it. I just reject the god bit like you reject the Garden of Eden etc bit. I'm a cultural Christian.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: However, it isn't imposed, we are completely free to reject that and live out lives based on self love and the gaining of personal wealth and power, and of course, everything in between.ringo writes: Jesus boiled down all of the laws into one basic commandment, and that is we are called to love one anther. How can someone command me to love my neighbour? He may be a jerk. You can't just command someone to love in the same way that you can command someone to not commit murder. It is all about developing hearts that desire to choose the loving thing and reject the selfish thing. That's your own white-washed version. It isn't what most Christians believe. It isn't what Jesus said. The commandment to love is not the same as the commandment to not to kill even though it would include that. Love in this case is about always wanting the best for someone, and being prepared to do something about it, even at a cost to ourselves. It isn't about something that I can do or not do specifically but about having a heart that essentially loves love and hates hate. We do however have the choice to reject that model and live lives based on looking out for number one.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: ...and you know that how?
He's god, of course he could. Tangle writes: If good is the only choice then it isn't a choice. But this insistence that the only way you can have choice is to also have evil and suffering is silly.Tangle writes: In order to wind up with a world who freely choose the good or loving option, this world with it's freedom to choose is necessary.
But if it is the only way, why would a loving god do it to us? It makes him evil. Tangle writes: I don't pretend to have any knowledge about heaven, which again I don't view as the final destination. The Biblical theme is the re-creation of all things.
You realise that that makes heaven a place full of moral robots?Tangle writes: Absolutely nothing.
And, btw, what's so wrong with a place where evil does not exist?
Tangle writes: This is another example of people putting church before God, not all that different than selling indulgences.
In the version of Christianity that I belonged to, you can't get to heaven without being baptised. (In itself an evil idea of course.) So I guess I got lucky.Tangle writes: Firstly I'd suggest that one would have to believe in theism, and secondly, one would have to believe something about the Christian faith that separates it from basic humanism. You say that neither of us are an authority on what a Christian is, then tell me that there are basic tenets. And, of course they will be your tenets not, say, Faith's or mine.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: I find the initial question ambiguous. I think if it had been "What benefits are only available through belief in God", then it would be clearer. Fair enough... and what is the benefit from all this?I would assume the benefit is that you feel you are "doing what you're supposed to be doing" or that you feel "like you fit into this strange world as you find your place." Such benefits do not require God.I obtain such benefits by creating my own purpose - without involving God at all. In the past I spent a lot of time volunteering in the political field with the hope that the party I was supporting would make the country a better place for it's citizens. On a personal level I wasn't doing it for a particular benefit to myself. I was already living a very comfortable life just as things were and didn't really see any particular benefit for me. I think I hold a similar POV about my Christian faith. I worked for a political party and my local candidate because I believed in them I believed in what they stood for. I want to work for Jesus because I believe in Him and what He stands for. Yes, I go beyond that in that I am a theist who believes that God is good and that He resurrected Jesus. I frankly am not looking for any particular benefit. I accept the biblical view of that there is an afterlife but I figure that God will take care of that and my role is simply to fulfill what I believe is my Christian vocation in this life, which is to image and reflect God's love for His creation. I also accept that there are a massive numbers of non-Christians who do this far better than I do, but that isn't the point. So, I can't be specific about anything available through God for Christians that isn't available to everyone. I contend that for some, such as Tangle's relative, that Christian belief gives them a particular peace that they might not have otherwise, and presumably it would be for me as well when I get to that point in life.
Stile writes: Therefore... obtaining a "point to my existence" because "there is a loving God as personified in Jesus" lowers the point of Stile's existence.Therefore... even if this was true - I would have to reject this purpose and obtain my own. Perhaps the one I develop will be similar - perhaps not.The point is that it comes from me... it benefits Stile greatly. But if it comes from someone else (God, Jesus... anyone...) it lowers the point of Stile's existence. (According to Stile.) And... since Stile is me... I am the only one that matters concerning my own subjective issues like "purpose" and "feeling positive benefits from things." I get that, and it is where I was in my agnostic period. I wouold point out though, that if I am correct in my beliefs then the peace that you get is actually from God whether you, or anyone for that matter, recognizes it or not. For example, when we hold our new-born child in our arms we feel this incredible sense of love, purpose and joy. I know that the majority of people on this forum will disagree strongly, but I do not have the faith to believe that those feelings emanate from a chance collection of mindless particles. Those feelings are there for everyone regardless of religious faith, but I believe that we have those feelings because we have a God who shares them. I would say that those feelings are "Only Available Through God' but that they aren't only available to Christians, but are available to all regardless of any religious belief, or of no religious belief.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: First off I don't understand Jesus as having said that. I'd suggest that the one who phrases it best is CS Lewis who said this from his book "The Great Divorce". You can if there's an "or else" attached. And that's exactly what Jesus said: Love your neighbour and you inherit the kingdom. Don't love your neighbour and you go to everlasting torment.quote: If someone chooses to base their life on self love and self promotion are not going to choose a life where that isn't part of the landscape. They would choose a world, (called hell if you like), that is a world where people have their own agendas and look out for themselves, even sometimes at the expense of others. Your point doesn't really make sense anyway. It is all about the heart, and people can't be commanded to have love, even under threat, for someone or some group when they hate them. They might fake loving someone for that reason but they can't actual hold it in their heart.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: and you know that how?Tangle writes: The trouble is that you attack your understanding of Christianity. I don't believe that version, at least as I understand it, either. Christianity is a religion, like most others. to explain our lives and then how we should respond. Read Paul. He is presumably the first theologian who puts his interpretation of the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus on to paper. Christians disagree on all sorts of stuff. Look at the difference of what I believe as compared to Faith. 1. Omnipotence2. Heaven In this case, my Christian belief is that a world of 'human caused' suffering and suffering that is the result of entropy were necessary to ultimately bring about a world with creatures who have chosen a world based on sacrificial love.
Tangle writes: I don't deny that thgis is the most difficult question for a Christian to deal with. I simply accept that it was necessary but I also see that God has given us intelligence and the will so that we can minimize the effect of suffering whether it be human caused or naturally caused.
It's not just good, it's also no evil, ie the concept of both doesn't exist. There's no logical difficulty with that state, nor does it contradict free will. (Which, in any case, only deals with good and evil and has nothing to say about suffering - famine, disaster, disease etc. Why does god need pancreatic cancer?) Tangle writes: I don't see that. Here is a 3 min video with John Polkinghorne who talks about his view that the future is not known by God as the future is not there to be known.
That's just plain daft. Your god knows the outcome of any world he sets up, so he knows the winners and losers - why run the hunger games?God and time Tangle writes: I simply see heaven as God's universe or dimension. Beyond that, I don't have real answers for you. Oh come on, that's just ducking the issue. If heaven isn't a place of perfection wtf is it?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Sure. Religion is not a science. No one has absolute knowledge. Within the Christian faith there are beliefs that vary from Faith who believes in an inerrant Bible to form her beliefs to jar who as near as I can tell believes in nothing more than the social message of Christianity and sees the resurrection as nothing more than a metaphor. I admit it's tricky remembering every believer's individual versions of what they call Christianity, but you know, heaven and omnipotence are generally safe territory. My understanding is based on the belief that God is, loving merciful and good, that He resurrected Jesus and that He speaks to us through the scriptures. (I do not hold to scripture inerrancy.)
Tangle writes: Not doing a great job of it are we.
Some consolation, we're in charge of fixing god's design bug? Tangle writes: Having a God that can create the world we live in is omnipotent enough for me. Polkinghorne's point is that God is all knowing but that the future is not there to be known.
Polkinghome knows no more about this than your or I. But now your god is neither omnipotent nor all knowing. You seem to be praying to a lessor god and certainly not one that most Christians recognise. Tangle writes:
Our ultimate paradise is the renewal or the re-creation of all things. The Bible talks about God's heaven and Earth becoming one. No one knows what that will be like except that suffering isn't part of it. Loving sacrificially goes beyond being nice. In some ways though you are correct. However I do believe in an afterlife and that in ways that I leave up to God, our lives here impact our next life both collectively and as individuals. So no paradise, no pearly gates etc. You just believe in people being nice. Welcome to humanism. If you cut out the unnecessary idolatry you'd save a lot of time.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: Then you don't understand it. It's exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 25.CS Lewis writes: All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.ringo writes: Read the parable through. The sheep performed loving acts for their neighbours, but if you notice they had no idea that they were doing it for Jesus. The point is they did it because they had hearts that loved others even at their own convenience and expense. They had no idea of any reward in this life or the next. The point then that this is the world that they have chosen to inhabit. That's just egregiously stupid.
The goats on the other hand couldn't be bothered and weren't going to be inconvenienced. They have hearts that are concerned with looking after the self and not being concerned with others. This is the world that they have chosen to inhabit. I would suggest that an eternal world where it's inhabitants have all chosen lives of selfish love would ultimately be a life of torment.
ringo writes: I disagree. What we do with our hands in helping others is a function of our motivation or our hearts. Here's where I have a problem with your interpretation. Jesus also said to whom much is given much is expected. I grew up in a home where was accepted, loved and valued. So many grow up in homes where they are abused, neglected and never really accepted. If it is just about the good things that we do that makes us a sheep then that is hardly justice. However, if it is about the heart then the person who has grown up in a home where he/she was abused might be virtually incapable of living the life of a sheep but deep down they have a heart that wants things to be that way in their lives and in their world. I believe that God is a god of perfect justice and that there is equality in that model of justice. No it isn't. It's about the hands. Paul says this in Romans 2. quote: ringo writes: I absolutely agree with that I guess I wasn't clear in what I wrote. Sorry. The point is that the commandment to love is not the same as any of the 10 commandments. Yes, Jesus does say that we are to love even those we regard as enemies. Being told that I am not to kill my enemy is straightforward and so I refrain from shooting him. However, just because I didn't kill him does not mean that I love him. If however I can find it in my heart to genuinely want the best for him then I have loved him but it isn't just something that I can make a decision and do. It requires an actual change of heart which isn't at all easy. Jesus' command to love our enemies is far harder than any other command in the Bible.
Have you even heard of the Bible? Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love thy neighbor. And He used the parable of the Good Samaritan to explain that even your worst enemy counts as your neighbor. ringo writes: Again I disagree, I can make a decision that I am going to be a sheep and invite an enemy into my home because that will get me in good with Jesus. However it is something all together different to invite an enemy into my home because I genuinely care about him. That's exactly it. You can fake loving somebody "in your heart". You can say, "Lord! Lord!" till the cows come home. But it's what you do with your hands that shows real love.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: I was thinking further about this. Last Sunday I was sitting in church behind a Nigerian family that immigrated here a month ago. They had two beautiful little children ages 6 months and 2. In the row in front of them was a single mom with her two mix-raced kids. The youngest one, who I think is 5, is severely autistic, but a really loving and lovable little guy. In sitting behind them I just felt that this is exactly where I wanted to be and felt a real sense of the presence and peace of God. This thread's intention is simply to touch on the subject of the claim some propose that God provides something for believers that others simply cannot ever hope to obtain without God. I've never been able to identify such a thing. I would agree that a non-Christian could find that same sense of love and peace and feel the same emotions, but what they would miss out on would be the sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and its creatures. It was like having a glimpse into and an experience of the world to come in the renewal of all things, where the lamb will lie down with the wolf. I am not saying that this is proof of God or of anything else, but my faith I think brought me a peace and hope for mankind that wouldn't be completely available to a non-believer, whether or not I am correct in my beliefs or not. Also, one other benefit to me specifically, was that I found life went a lot more smoothly for me when I became a Christian. I found that working at following God in my life was much easier than try to be the person that would be approved of by others in my life. God seemed a lot easier to please. I found that by living that way, my relationships with others went more smoothly and in general life just became more pleasant. That is just my experience and wouldn't necessarily hold true for others, and in fact could be very much the opposite for them.
Stile writes: I accept that, but can you be more specific or give an example?
Just as there are some (like me) who get a particular peace specifically away from the Christian belief, one that cannot be obtained (for me) within a Christian framework. GDR writes: I would point out though, that if I am correct in my beliefs then the peace that you get is actually from God whether you, or anyone for that matter, recognizes it or not.Stile writes: I agree, but I don't think I see myself as feeling any more secure than I did when I was agnostic. I like everyone else believe, that what I believe, basically represents reality, so for me it is about a search for truth, knowing that it still represents belief not knowledge.
I am forced to agree again.Of course, the reverse is equally valid: That if God does not exist, then the peace Christians feel "through God" is actually a manifestation of their own mind simply convincing themselves with a comforting idea. Like a security blanket or Dumbo's "magic feather." Regardless if they recognize it or not. Stile writes: I know I've drawn this thread off topic more than once, but I would just ask you to think about this. Look at the universe within the first seconds after the BB and think about the likelihood of conscience life as we know it forming from what existed then, without any intelligent input. I don't require an answer. I just don't see how that phrase accurately represents what anyone thinks along the ideas of natural creation and eventual evolution without God. I don't think anyone thinks people came about from "a chance collection" of anything.Evolution includes the filter of natural selection. Natural selection removes "chance" and replaces it with "this must work - or it dies" as well as "if this is significantly better, it will kill of the weaker and leave only the improved." Therefore, I do not find your description accurate to the reality we understand. On top of that, I don't personally see a problem with "mindless particles" coming together to form an actual mind.Just as I don't see a problem with "CPU-less circuits" coming together to form an actual CPU of a computer. But such a discussion is getting away from "benefits only available through belief in God" and is better in another forum.So I will "agree to disagree" here. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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