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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 301 of 438 (853597)
05-29-2019 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:13 AM


Faith writes:
Where on earth is that piece of hogwash written?
That'll be the Quran, Faith.
I believe it mentions Mecca too. Well Bakkah actually, it's name at the time. So that's time and place.
Funny how other people's dumb belief sound like hogwash isn't it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 12:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 302 of 438 (853600)
05-29-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by jar
05-29-2019 11:20 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Stiles did not ask for eternal benefits. He asked for benefits in the here and now. Purpose and meaning in life can come from any religion. If a purpose is derived from islam or buddhism it will pale in comparison to a purpose that is derived from a sincere belief in the God of the bible.
Purposes that are held by people who deny the existence of any being in charge of the universe can only be derived from philosophy. One could have a philosophy to remove suffering in this world at every opportunity but the notion that some people do not deserve rights or have an intrinsic value because you deem them to be evil, will end up causing the world harm and such a purpose would ultimately lead to regret.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by jar, posted 05-29-2019 11:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2019 12:12 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 312 by jar, posted 05-29-2019 1:46 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 315 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 9:38 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 303 of 438 (853601)
05-29-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by foreveryoung
05-29-2019 5:07 AM


foreveryoung writes:
I know you dispute the bible's reckoning but you cannot prove it to be false much less a myth.
It has been proven that the creation and the flood are myths.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by foreveryoung, posted 05-29-2019 5:07 AM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 12:12 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1531 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 304 of 438 (853602)
05-29-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Tangle
05-29-2019 11:59 AM


Mea culpa. Let me correct my statement then to say that the Bible's historical and geographical references are NOT MERELY CIRCUMSTANTIAL AS CLEARLY IS THE CASE WITH ISLAM, THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE AUTHENTICATION OF THE REVELATION. You'll argue that too, no doubt, because there is no utterly specious silly argument that doesn't get used against Christians or conservatives at EvC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2019 11:59 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2019 12:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 305 of 438 (853603)
05-29-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by foreveryoung
05-29-2019 12:06 PM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
FEY writes:
If a purpose is derived from islam or buddhism it will pale in comparison to a purpose that is derived from a sincere belief in the God of the bible.
What amazing hubris! Everybody else's belief is is inferior to mine. What crap.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by foreveryoung, posted 05-29-2019 12:06 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 12:16 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1531 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 306 of 438 (853604)
05-29-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by ringo
05-29-2019 12:07 PM


The Flood has in fact been proven to explain most of the geological record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by ringo, posted 05-29-2019 12:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by ringo, posted 05-29-2019 12:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1531 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 307 of 438 (853606)
05-29-2019 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Tangle
05-29-2019 12:12 PM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
What amazing hubris! Everybody else's belief is is inferior to mine. What crap.
It simply isn't possible for one to have chosen the one true religion, according to you. Not sure why not. Seems to be just a personal prejudice. Cuz Christianity IS the one true religion, and that's why I chose it. Probably FY too. Others may say the same about other religions but I don't think it's true, I think other religions are chosen because they appeal to something in the personality. Truth isn't the main thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2019 12:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 308 of 438 (853607)
05-29-2019 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Phat
05-29-2019 8:45 AM


Re: One Top Many Paths
Phat writes:
Ringo seems to think that it is impossible for the "Bible" to support the idea and belief in itself.
It is impossible for any book to support itself. In fact, it is impossible even for a verifiable piece of evidence to support itself. The verification must come from outside.
Phat writes:
I would challenge this assertion.
But your "challenge" consists of quoting the Bible. How many times must you be told? You can't quote Treasure Island to prove Treasure Island.
Phat writes:
Thus I have shown that the stories in the Bible indeed can support the belief and ideology and hold their own with modern philosophical thought.
Most fiction does that.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 05-29-2019 8:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 309 of 438 (853611)
05-29-2019 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Faith
05-29-2019 12:10 PM


Faith writes:
Let me correct my statement then to say that the Bible's historical and geographical references are NOT MERELY CIRCUMSTANTIAL AS CLEARLY IS THE CASE WITH ISLAM, THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE AUTHENTICATION OF THE REVELATION.
There is absolutely no difference between Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey and Mohamed turning up in Mecca. They're both real places and both occur at specific times. So according to you, must both contribute to authentication. Or neither do. The latter is, of course, the case.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 12:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 310 of 438 (853612)
05-29-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Faith
05-29-2019 12:12 PM


Faith writes:
Some of you folks seem to think that scientists are some sort of modern-day shamans who will unveil the truths of the universe to us.
Nope. You have failed, to the point of comedy, in every attempt to do that.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 12:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 311 of 438 (853618)
05-29-2019 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:39 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Faith writes:
The OP allows for lack of evidence, and the only evidence possible for the gift of eternal llfe is the testimony of Jesus.
Not true Faith.
There is also the testimony found in the Glorious Qur'an, the Book of the Dead, the Norse Sagas, the accounts of Olympus and the evidence of reincarnation of Lamas.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 312 of 438 (853619)
05-29-2019 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by foreveryoung
05-29-2019 12:06 PM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
foreveryoung writes:
If a purpose is derived from islam or buddhism it will pale in comparison to a purpose that is derived from a sincere belief in the God of the bible.
So you assert yet never provide any support or evidence that is factual.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by foreveryoung, posted 05-29-2019 12:06 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 313 of 438 (853630)
05-29-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
10-19-2009 12:01 PM


Re: Why Not God?
I addressed the topic with Stile earlier in the thread. I will continue that line of reasoning per your request, jar.
Stile writes:
I suppose part of my problem would be that I'm not sure how I could have identified such a relationship. Which, again, is kind of what this thread is about.
I certainly believed God was real, and I certainly believed I was talking and sharing with God and He was comforting and walking with me.
Then I reached a point where I could attain all the same (sometimes larger) feelings of self-confidence, comfort, elation, and peace without having to think of God.
Personally, I believe that meeting God is a one-time initial action. jar always asks how I would even know, but all I can say is that I do. Of course, in an empirical sense, I could be wrong, but I have enough faith that I will at this point in time stand my ground regarding my personal belief.
jar has always stated that the God He imagines is unconcerned whether we even believe in "Her" or not---but I believe that God wants a relational communion with each individual. Animals may feel this too, but we call that "instinct".
Stile writes:
Then I reached a point where I could attain all the same (sometimes larger) feelings of self-confidence, comfort, elation, and peace without having to think of God.
Personally, I prefer to use the term God Confidence rather than Self. It is good to have self-confidence, but perhaps the main difference between myself and others like you is that you believe that our selves and others are all we really have to rely on. It has been my experience that this is not the extent of the truth---but again, I can't objectively prove it.
I always teach it this way. Three Levels.
1) Knowing about someone.
2) Meeting someone.
3) Knowing and trusting someone for the rest of your life.
Stile writes:
I'm only saying that a relationship with God is not necessary for me (and likely others) to have a level of spiritualism that is equal to or surpassing the level of spiritualism that comes from a relationship with God.
What other spirits could there actually be? The human spirit? The secular zeitgeist? Woo?
Stile writes:
I don't think prayer's silly. I just think it isn't necessary. But, if prayer is simply "talking to God" (or attempting to), then I do in fact pray and continue to do so. I just never receive an answer. In which case I continue to ignore the concepts of God that people present to me without any reason to actually give them credence.
I think it is wise to not be swayed by other peoples ideas and beliefs, and I think that the fact that you do a form of prayer shows intent and that you will be rewarded for your intentions and actions as much as for your beliefs. Besides, I could never imagine a God who would judge people more on beliefs and confessions than over behavior and actions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 10-19-2009 12:01 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 10:00 AM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 130 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 314 of 438 (853715)
05-31-2019 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:39 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Faith writes:
Jesus said He came to give us eternal llfe. You don't have to believe Him but that's the benefit He offers us. Take it or leave it.
I can get that from anywhere.
The main focus of the OP is benefits in THIS llfe, however, and I believe there are many but again there wouldn't be any evidence.
That's the point.
There isn't any difference between devout Christians and devout atheists.
Some are very smart, others not so much.
Some are very rich, others not so much.
Some are very happy, others not so much.
Some have lives filled with love and peace, others not so much.
But being a "devout Christian" or being a "devout atheist" doesn't have an impact on which category you're going to be in.
Therefore - it doesn't make a difference.
There is no benefit to being a Christian in a general, average overall sense.
There is only a benefit to being a Christian in a personal, specific, subjective sense.
Just as there is only a benefit to being an atheist in a personal, specific, subjective sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:39 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Phat, posted 05-31-2019 10:02 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 130 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 315 of 438 (853718)
05-31-2019 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by foreveryoung
05-29-2019 12:06 PM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
faoreveryoung writes:
If a purpose is derived from islam or buddhism it will pale in comparison to a purpose that is derived from a sincere belief in the God of the bible.
How so?
I don't see it.
purposes that are held by people who deny the existence of any being in charge of the universe can only be derived from philosophy.
Personal philosophy, yes.
Which makes them stronger than obtaining a purpose from any outside source - even an all-powerful, universe-creating God.
One could have a philosophy to remove suffering in this world at every opportunity but the notion that some people do not deserve rights or have an intrinsic value because you deem them to be evil, will end up causing the world harm and such a purpose would ultimately lead to regret.
What if such a person did not ultimately lead to regret?
Then is it greater that God's purpose?
What is "God's purpose," anyway?
Personal purpose, for me, is greater than God's purpose because it resonates with me. God's purpose does not.
Or, at least I think God's purpose doesn't resonate with me - you'd have to tell me what "God's purpose" is for me to know.
Unfortunately, God - in his all-powerful, universe-creating ways - isn't capable of offering a purpose to me that resonates stronger than a purpose I generate myself. Therefore God will always be lacking in this way. Behind the curve. Unable to ever catch up.
It's not His fault - to me, purpose is subjective. I don't blame God or really care that God's purpose isn't enough for me. I already have a purpose that is stronger, for me - the ones I generate for myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by foreveryoung, posted 05-29-2019 12:06 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
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