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Author | Topic: Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
edge Member (Idle past 1959 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Fossils of evidence of Darwinian evolution, progressive creation and genetic engineering by aliens.
I await your evidence. Still. Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined: |
Phat writes:
Thomas Aquinas argued that it is a much greater feat for God to create than to modify something that already exists.
...if God did indeed do it that way He is fooling everyone. Now, why would an omnipotent Being need to do a silly thing like that?
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.3 |
OK, so you have nothing whatsoever.
Your move.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Thomas Aquinas argued that it is a much greater feat for God to create than to modify something that already exists. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.2 |
I don't think he is a good source to use to argue against evolution.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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JonF Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
"cat"
Mutate "c" to "b"... "bat" Two different words with a lot of features in common. Similar to chimps and humans. That's the process. There are lots of important details left out. But without understanding how the process changes a chimp/human precursor into chimps and humans there's no point in going into them.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17914 Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
quote: Faith, you were supposedly giving examples to illustrate your completely unclear criterion. Nobody else can do that because your criterion is incredibly unclear.
quote: You may be trying to make a general point, but you haven’t managed to adequately communicate it yet.
quote: Then how can you know that your claim is true ?
quote: The genetic comparisons are more focussed on the actual evolutionary claim that chimps and humans have a common ancestor. But to the best of my knowledge mutations could do the job. And - without getting into the specifics you want to avoid - how can you possibly show otherwise ?
quote: And so we come to the question of which changes are possible and which are not. It is clear that traits which are not currently chimpanzee characteristics could be added. Out of all the mutations that are possible at the genetic level, which are possible and which are not ? And why are these allegedly impossible mutations impossible ?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Chimp genome makes nothing but chimps. Human genome makes nothing but humans. Dog genome makes nothing but dogs. Mutations don't change this fact, each genome continues to make what it makes. So there's no reason to think more mutations would change that fact. Over however many years or millions of years you like.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17914 Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
quote: That is an empty tautology that doesn’t deal with the issues.
quote: Mutations change what the genome makes.
quote: That is obviously wrong, unless you are going to say that no matter how much the genome changes you are going to call a chimp descendant a “chimp”. Which would prove nothing. If you don’t want to waste time on that semantic game, the fact that the genome changes, producing phenotypic changes IS a reason. The fact that the differences between existing species can be explained by mutations is another. And they are good reasons. But you offer no reason at all to think that you are correct.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Mutations hardly ever change anything in the phenotype and when they do it is usually a disease.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17914 Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
quote: That is your assertion. But unless you can back it up with numbers - and deal with the evidence already referred to it is not much of an argument. It is also a change of argument.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.3
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Chimp genome makes nothing but chimps. Human genome makes nothing but humans. Dog genome makes nothing but dogs. Mutations don't change this fact, each genome continues to make what it makes. And Hominini genome makes nothing but Hominini (which includes both genera, Homo (humans) and Pan (chimps and bonobos)). {voice=creationist}But they're still HOMININI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!{/voice} Silly, willfully stupid creationists! Edited by dwise1, : bold tags
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.3 |
Mutations hardly ever change anything in the phenotype and when they do it is usually a disease. Do you even have any clue whatsoever what a mutation is? Sorry, extremely stupid question, since obviously you do have no clue whatsoever. Most of the time creationists think of physical mutations, often caused by outside factors called mutagens which cause gross physical changes which are very obvious. Those are of absolutely no interest to evolution. The only mutations that are of any interest at all are genetic, and furthermore only those genetic mutations which appear in the germ cells which would make them inheritable. Any genetic mutation which is not heritable is of absolutely no interest to evolution. The relationship of genetic mutations to changes in the phenotype is not in the least bit proportional and is very difficult to predict. You can have a lot of genetic changes with virtually no change in the phenotype, or you can have a single genetic change with a very large change in the phenotype. IOW, it is virtually impossible to make a general statement on this matter. The genetic mutations of interest to evolution are of a few specific types (see classification of mutations). Insertion or deletion of nucleotides (the CGTA bases in DNA) can result in frame-shift errors that completely mess up the gene, unless they occur in multiples of three (the size of a codon). Insertion or deletion of a copy of an entire gene is far less problematic -- inserting yet another copy of a gene results in redundancy (ie, multiple alleles) and deletion or destruction (eg, via a frame-shift) of a redundant gene likewise has little effect in the phenotype. Base substitutions are far less problematic, since in genes they only result in changes in the amino acid sequence of a protein. From class notes for the only true "balanced-treatment" creation/evolution class I've ever heard of (offered by Thwaites and Awbrey at San Diego State University in which half the lectures were by professional creationists from the then-nearby Institute for Creation Research (ICR), until escalating protests by campus Christian clubs pressured the administration to close the class (DAMNED LEFTISTS!!!!!!!!)), we find that there's a lot of wiggle room for changes in proteins' amino acid sequences. From my page, THE "RANDOM" PROTEINS ARGUMENT:
quote: So a lot of base substitution mutations (at least about half of them) have no effect on the resultant protein. These are the so-called "neutral mutations" which have no effect on the phenotype and which are the basis of "molecular clocks" for making rough estimates of how long ago past populations had split off into different branches. Furthermore, they are the basis for comparing the same proteins in different species to see how closely or remotely related they are -- the picture that they paint agrees very closely with the Linnean classification system (created by a creationist BTW), creationist false claims not withstanding (eg, Gish's "bullfrog protein" (based solely on a joke about an enchanted prince -- No Duff!), Walter Brown's rattlesnake protein claim (same page)). One of the things we see when base substitutions cause a gene to produce a different protein is that the old protein's functions are still provided by the other copies of that gene (again, multiple alleles). An example is the gene for lysozyme (used to attack bacteria) mutating to produce alpha-lactelbumin (a mammalian precursor to milk production -- also discussed in The Bullfrog Affair), in which the old functionality of lysozyme continues to be covered by the other multiple genes that produce that protein. Again, casting such pearls before swine mostly only serves to annoy the swine, but it also can serve to educate the lurkers, my intended audience.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I got my understanding of mutations from you guys here.
Your explanations are pretty familiar actually. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Taq Member Posts: 10299 Joined: Member Rating: 7.3 |
Faith writes: mere mutations in the genome aren't going to turn the chimp genome into a human genome. If we changed the chimp genome so that it matched the human genome, would the result be a human?
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