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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
edge
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 826 of 1385 (852170)
05-07-2019 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by Dredge
05-07-2019 8:03 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Fossils of evidence of Darwinian evolution, progressive creation and genetic engineering by aliens.
I await your evidence.
Still.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by Dredge, posted 05-07-2019 8:03 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 827 of 1385 (852171)
05-07-2019 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by Phat
05-01-2019 12:43 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
Phat writes:
...if God did indeed do it that way He is fooling everyone. Now, why would an omnipotent Being need to do a silly thing like that?
Thomas Aquinas argued that it is a much greater feat for God to create than to modify something that already exists.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by dwise1, posted 05-07-2019 8:38 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 829 by AZPaul3, posted 05-07-2019 8:44 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 830 by Theodoric, posted 05-07-2019 8:51 PM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 828 of 1385 (852172)
05-07-2019 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Dredge
05-07-2019 8:33 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
OK, so you have nothing whatsoever.
Your move.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Dredge, posted 05-07-2019 8:33 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 829 of 1385 (852173)
05-07-2019 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Dredge
05-07-2019 8:33 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
Thomas Aquinas argued that it is a much greater feat for God to create than to modify something that already exists.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 830 of 1385 (852176)
05-07-2019 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Dredge
05-07-2019 8:33 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
I don't think he is a good source to use to argue against evolution.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 831 of 1385 (852177)
05-07-2019 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 822 by Faith
05-07-2019 7:01 PM


Re: Restating the question
"cat"
Mutate "c" to "b"...
"bat"
Two different words with a lot of features in common. Similar to chimps and humans.
That's the process. There are lots of important details left out. But without understanding how the process changes a chimp/human precursor into chimps and humans there's no point in going into them.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17914
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 832 of 1385 (852182)
05-08-2019 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 822 by Faith
05-07-2019 7:01 PM


Re: Restating the question
quote:
Well then pick a trait that is clearly chimpanzee,
Faith, you were supposedly giving examples to illustrate your completely unclear criterion. Nobody else can do that because your criterion is incredibly unclear.
quote:
I'm making a general point,
You may be trying to make a general point, but you haven’t managed to adequately communicate it yet.
quote:
I don't care about the specifics
Then how can you know that your claim is true ?
quote:
...certainly there are chimp characteristics that COULDN'T be taken for human and my argument would be the same: mere mutations in the genome aren't going to turn the chimp genome into a human genome
The genetic comparisons are more focussed on the actual evolutionary claim that chimps and humans have a common ancestor. But to the best of my knowledge mutations could do the job. And - without getting into the specifics you want to avoid - how can you possibly show otherwise ?
quote:
You say they can, I say they can't. They can only reproduce chimp characteristics.
And so we come to the question of which changes are possible and which are not. It is clear that traits which are not currently chimpanzee characteristics could be added. Out of all the mutations that are possible at the genetic level, which are possible and which are not ? And why are these allegedly impossible mutations impossible ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 822 by Faith, posted 05-07-2019 7:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by Faith, posted 05-08-2019 12:38 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 833 of 1385 (852183)
05-08-2019 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by PaulK
05-08-2019 12:18 AM


Re: Restating the question
Chimp genome makes nothing but chimps. Human genome makes nothing but humans. Dog genome makes nothing but dogs. Mutations don't change this fact, each genome continues to make what it makes. So there's no reason to think more mutations would change that fact. Over however many years or millions of years you like.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by PaulK, posted 05-08-2019 12:46 AM Faith has replied
 Message 837 by dwise1, posted 05-08-2019 2:58 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 842 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2019 4:01 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17914
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 834 of 1385 (852184)
05-08-2019 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 833 by Faith
05-08-2019 12:38 AM


Re: Restating the question
quote:
Chimp genome makes nothing but chimps. Human genome makes nothing but humans. Dog genome makes nothing but dogs
That is an empty tautology that doesn’t deal with the issues.
quote:
Mutations don't change this fact, each genome continues to make what it makes
Mutations change what the genome makes.
quote:
So there's no reason to think more mutations would change that fact.
That is obviously wrong, unless you are going to say that no matter how much the genome changes you are going to call a chimp descendant a “chimp”. Which would prove nothing.
If you don’t want to waste time on that semantic game, the fact that the genome changes, producing phenotypic changes IS a reason. The fact that the differences between existing species can be explained by mutations is another. And they are good reasons.
But you offer no reason at all to think that you are correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by Faith, posted 05-08-2019 12:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 835 by Faith, posted 05-08-2019 12:53 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 835 of 1385 (852185)
05-08-2019 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 834 by PaulK
05-08-2019 12:46 AM


Re: Restating the question
Mutations hardly ever change anything in the phenotype and when they do it is usually a disease.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 838 by dwise1, posted 05-08-2019 4:18 AM Faith has replied
 Message 841 by Taq, posted 05-08-2019 3:36 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17914
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 836 of 1385 (852186)
05-08-2019 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 835 by Faith
05-08-2019 12:53 AM


Re: Restating the question
quote:
Mutations hardly ever change anything in the phenotype and when they do it is usually a disease
That is your assertion. But unless you can back it up with numbers - and deal with the evidence already referred to it is not much of an argument.
It is also a change of argument.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 837 of 1385 (852188)
05-08-2019 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 833 by Faith
05-08-2019 12:38 AM


Re: Restating the question
Chimp genome makes nothing but chimps. Human genome makes nothing but humans. Dog genome makes nothing but dogs. Mutations don't change this fact, each genome continues to make what it makes.
And Hominini genome makes nothing but Hominini (which includes both genera, Homo (humans) and Pan (chimps and bonobos)).
{voice=creationist}But they're still HOMININI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!{/voice}
Silly, willfully stupid creationists!
Edited by dwise1, : bold tags

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 838 of 1385 (852189)
05-08-2019 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 835 by Faith
05-08-2019 12:53 AM


Re: Restating the question
Mutations hardly ever change anything in the phenotype and when they do it is usually a disease.
Do you even have any clue whatsoever what a mutation is? Sorry, extremely stupid question, since obviously you do have no clue whatsoever.
Most of the time creationists think of physical mutations, often caused by outside factors called mutagens which cause gross physical changes which are very obvious. Those are of absolutely no interest to evolution.
The only mutations that are of any interest at all are genetic, and furthermore only those genetic mutations which appear in the germ cells which would make them inheritable. Any genetic mutation which is not heritable is of absolutely no interest to evolution.
The relationship of genetic mutations to changes in the phenotype is not in the least bit proportional and is very difficult to predict. You can have a lot of genetic changes with virtually no change in the phenotype, or you can have a single genetic change with a very large change in the phenotype. IOW, it is virtually impossible to make a general statement on this matter.
The genetic mutations of interest to evolution are of a few specific types (see classification of mutations). Insertion or deletion of nucleotides (the CGTA bases in DNA) can result in frame-shift errors that completely mess up the gene, unless they occur in multiples of three (the size of a codon). Insertion or deletion of a copy of an entire gene is far less problematic -- inserting yet another copy of a gene results in redundancy (ie, multiple alleles) and deletion or destruction (eg, via a frame-shift) of a redundant gene likewise has little effect in the phenotype.
Base substitutions are far less problematic, since in genes they only result in changes in the amino acid sequence of a protein. From class notes for the only true "balanced-treatment" creation/evolution class I've ever heard of (offered by Thwaites and Awbrey at San Diego State University in which half the lectures were by professional creationists from the then-nearby Institute for Creation Research (ICR), until escalating protests by campus Christian clubs pressured the administration to close the class (DAMNED LEFTISTS!!!!!!!!)), we find that there's a lot of wiggle room for changes in proteins' amino acid sequences. From my page, THE "RANDOM" PROTEINS ARGUMENT:
quote:
Rather than brandying about a hypothetical protein, let's look at a specific case. In the class notes of Frank Awbrey & William Thwaites' creation/evolution class at UCSD (the Institute for Creation Research conducted half the lectures and Awbrey & Thwaites the other half), they give the example of a calcium binding site with 29 amino acid positions: only 2 positions (7%) require specific amino acids, 8 positions (28%) can be filled by any of 5 hydrophobic amino acids, 3 positions (10%) can be filled by any one of 4 other amino acids, 2 positions (7%) can be filled with two different amino acids, and 14 of the positions (48%) can be filled by virtually any of the 20 amino acids.
So a lot of base substitution mutations (at least about half of them) have no effect on the resultant protein. These are the so-called "neutral mutations" which have no effect on the phenotype and which are the basis of "molecular clocks" for making rough estimates of how long ago past populations had split off into different branches. Furthermore, they are the basis for comparing the same proteins in different species to see how closely or remotely related they are -- the picture that they paint agrees very closely with the Linnean classification system (created by a creationist BTW), creationist false claims not withstanding (eg, Gish's "bullfrog protein" (based solely on a joke about an enchanted prince -- No Duff!), Walter Brown's rattlesnake protein claim (same page)).
One of the things we see when base substitutions cause a gene to produce a different protein is that the old protein's functions are still provided by the other copies of that gene (again, multiple alleles). An example is the gene for lysozyme (used to attack bacteria) mutating to produce alpha-lactelbumin (a mammalian precursor to milk production -- also discussed in The Bullfrog Affair), in which the old functionality of lysozyme continues to be covered by the other multiple genes that produce that protein.
Again, casting such pearls before swine mostly only serves to annoy the swine, but it also can serve to educate the lurkers, my intended audience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 835 by Faith, posted 05-08-2019 12:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 839 of 1385 (852202)
05-08-2019 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 838 by dwise1
05-08-2019 4:18 AM


Re: Restating the question
I got my understanding of mutations from you guys here.
Your explanations are pretty familiar actually.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 840 of 1385 (852221)
05-08-2019 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 822 by Faith
05-07-2019 7:01 PM


Re: Restating the question
Faith writes:
mere mutations in the genome aren't going to turn the chimp genome into a human genome.
If we changed the chimp genome so that it matched the human genome, would the result be a human?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 822 by Faith, posted 05-07-2019 7:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
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