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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
JonF
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 736 of 1385 (851983)
05-05-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 731 by Faith
05-05-2019 3:50 PM


Re: Restating the question
It's amusing how nobody can do that and just keep trying to throw it back on me.
Demanding a step by step explanation is hypocritical. You know none is available for our or your scenario.
Science works with the evidence we have, not the evidence you think we should have

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by Faith, posted 05-05-2019 3:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 05-05-2019 6:48 PM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1697 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 737 of 1385 (851995)
05-05-2019 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by JonF
05-05-2019 4:44 PM


Re: Restating the question
Nice try, sort of, but not really. If you're going to claim that microevolution just proceeds without a glitch to macroevolution you should be able to come up with some kind of idea of how that could happen genetically, some kind of pathway, some idea of what genetic changes would be necessary to get from the genome that always makes only its own particular species to at least one trait of some completely different species. If you can't you really need to stop saying it happens with all the certainty usually put behind that statement. If you can't show how mutations could get from that species-specific genome to something entirely different, even one trait of it, you need to stop claiming that it happens as you all do. If you can't even come up with a reasonable guess let alone actual evidence, it becomes a lie to keep stating it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by JonF, posted 05-05-2019 4:44 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by PaulK, posted 05-06-2019 1:12 AM Faith has replied
 Message 742 by JonF, posted 05-06-2019 9:00 AM Faith has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 738 of 1385 (851997)
05-05-2019 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Stile
04-29-2019 8:37 AM


I asked you to explain your claim, not to mindlessly repeat it. Explain why is necessary to accept that all life shares a common ancestor in order to understand antibiotic resistance and the evolution of blind fish?
As before, you won't supply such an explanation - because you can't.
There exist professors of biology who are YECs - according to you, these professors can't understand how antibiotic resistance works or how blind fish evolve!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Stile, posted 04-29-2019 8:37 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 760 by Stile, posted 05-06-2019 1:28 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 739 of 1385 (851998)
05-05-2019 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by herebedragons
04-28-2019 8:47 PM


herebedragons writes:
But you think that adding "God did it" anywhere there are gaps in our knowledge improves our ability to explain things scientifically?
Don' t be silly.
But what you don't seem to get is that even if evolutionary theory was actually a terrible theory, we would still continue to use it until a better theory came along - simply because it IS the best theory we have regarding the diversity of life on earth.
The best scientific explanation for the history of life is that aliens performed feats of genetic engineering. The Darwinist explanation is a nineteenth-century idea that is inadequate and outdated.
How could you possibly know if all members of a genus shared a common ancestor? How could you know if several genera shared a common ancestor. For example: in the cat family, Felidae, there are at least 14 extant genera. Are each of these separate creations? or is each of the 8 lineages a separate creation? Or is the whole family descended from a common ancestor - as most creationists claim? What is your criteria for determining the answer?
Why would I need to answer these questions? The theory of common descent is irrelevant and useless.
If you are disparaging basic research in general, sure, often times basic research has no application in applied science. But that building block will be added to by another basic researcher and another until something useful does come from it.
No kidding? Biology needs research to progress.
Do you think I am going to go to work next week and apply your claims to my work? No, I am going to go with what has been proven to work.
What are you talking about? Why the hell would I want to you stop using "what has been proven to work"?
All I want you to do is explain why is it necessary to "root" a plant you are studying to some extinct "ancestor" that supposedly existed millions of years ago - because this sounds like a complete waste of time to me.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by herebedragons, posted 04-28-2019 8:47 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by edge, posted 05-05-2019 8:29 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 991 by herebedragons, posted 05-13-2019 2:43 PM Dredge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 740 of 1385 (851999)
05-05-2019 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 739 by Dredge
05-05-2019 8:14 PM


The best scientific explanation for the history of life is that aliens performed feats of genetic engineering. The Darwinist explanation is a nineteenth-century idea that is inadequate and outdated.
Fabulous, I love it. But I'd like to see your evidence, Mulder.
And then could you tell us how this theory is applicable in practical biology?
All I want you to do is explain why is it necessary to "root" a plant you are studying to some extinct "ancestor" that supposedly existed millions of years ago - because this sounds like a complete waste of time to me.
Yes, exactly.
To you...
Now you just have to find someone who cares about your opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 739 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2019 8:14 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2019 6:09 PM edge has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17914
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.9


(1)
Message 741 of 1385 (852009)
05-06-2019 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 737 by Faith
05-05-2019 6:48 PM


Re: Restating the question
quote:
Nice try, sort of, but not really. If you're going to claim that microevolution just proceeds without a glitch to macroevolution you should be able to come up with some kind of idea of how that could happen genetically, some kind of pathway, some idea of what genetic changes would be necessary to get from the genome that always makes only its own particular species to at least one trait of some completely different species.
The pathways already invoked for microevolution seem to be adequate. Especially as they include gaining and losing genes.
Added: and for an unusual but relevant case, see this thread and the article linked in the OP. Message 1
If you have any concrete objections it is rather surprising that you haven’t seriously raised them.
quote:
If you can't show how mutations could get from that species-specific genome to something entirely different, even one trait of it, you need to stop claiming that it happens as you all do
There is nothing special about a “species-specific genome” that means that it can’t change. Indeed discussion around that point seems meaningless. The “species-specific genome” is based on the individual genomes of the members of that species and will change as the membership of that species changes. If a sub-population is isolated it will diverge from the rest of the species - drift alone guarantees that. The changes that occur must be counted when identifying the “species-specific genome” right up until that population is considered to be a different species when it isn’t.
Or to put it simply there is absolutely nothing special about “species specific genomes” that suggest any problems in going from one to another. Changes occur, some of them will end up in new species while not being considered as belonging to the parent species (even if they were present for a time) but there is nothing special about those changes. They were just those that happened to occur as part of a speciation event rather than just adding to the diversity of the main population.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 05-05-2019 6:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 744 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 9:46 AM PaulK has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 742 of 1385 (852010)
05-06-2019 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 737 by Faith
05-05-2019 6:48 PM


Re: Restating the question
We know almost all about the changes that were necessary. We don't know in what order they occurred.
Still waiting for the step by step narrative of your scenario.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 05-05-2019 6:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 9:35 AM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1697 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 743 of 1385 (852013)
05-06-2019 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 742 by JonF
05-06-2019 9:00 AM


Re: Restating the question
We know almost all about the changes that were necessary. We don't know in what order they occurred.
\\
The necessary changes are what I was asking for but you haven't even tried to spell them out. This gives the impression that you really don't know what those changes would have to be. You don't need to bother about the order, but giving even a very sketchy idea of the necessary changes would go a long way to answering the question I keep asking.
Still waiting for the step by step narrative of your scenario.
Your job at the moment is to answer my question. It's understandable that you want to distract from it since obviously you have no answer, but that is what is on the table at the moment.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by JonF, posted 05-06-2019 9:00 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 746 by Tangle, posted 05-06-2019 10:17 AM Faith has replied
 Message 755 by JonF, posted 05-06-2019 11:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1697 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 744 of 1385 (852017)
05-06-2019 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 741 by PaulK
05-06-2019 1:12 AM


Re: Restating the question
I've already answered your objections a million times. A genome IS indeed "species-specific." That is, it can build the species it belongs to and no other. For even a single recognizable trait that belongs to another species to be the product of such a genome is impossible. Although that is the question and you can still try to answer it. You will never get even a human fingernail from the chimp genome. If you want to show how that could be possible over millions of years then please explain. You'd have to describe the sort of genetic changes that would have to occur over those millions of years. And I would guess that you need millions of small changes to accumulate so maybe you could spell out what has to happen to make that possible. You claim the genome can change so show us how it does so. So far all you are doing is reciting the Evo Creed over and over again.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by PaulK, posted 05-06-2019 1:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by PaulK, posted 05-06-2019 10:12 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17914
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 745 of 1385 (852021)
05-06-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 744 by Faith
05-06-2019 9:46 AM


Re: Restating the question
quote:
I've already answered your objections a million times
Simple assertions aren’t really adequate answers.
quote:
A genome IS indeed "species-specific." That is, it can build the species it belongs to and no other.
In practical terms that is true, but that’s not because there is anything special about the genome - and it doesn’t mean that that genome is constant. Variations can and do come and go.
No meaningful objection there.
quote:
For even a single recognizable trait that belongs to another species to be the product of such a genome is impossible.
Presumably you mean traits that don’t belong to the species - since shared traits are ubiquitous. But this is also meaningless as an objection. Any heritable trait found in the species “belongs” to the species, and the genome will be involved in it’s existence.
quote:
Although that is the question and you can still try to answer it
Then that is already answered. If new traits appear through mutation - as we know can happen - then they will “belong” to the species and be the product of the genome. Even though the genome lacked the capability to produce the trait before.
quote:
You will never get even a human fingernail from the chimp genome.
Perhaps you can explain the differences between a chimp fingernail and a human fingernail and explain the role of the genome in producing those differences.
quote:
If you want to show how that could be possible over millions of years then please explain. You'd have to describe the sort of genetic changes that would have to occur over those millions of years
But you claim to be able to show that it is impossible. Asking for details that I’m not in a position to know doesn’t show that. It’s just a rhetorical trick. An attempt to cover up the fact that you cannot show any real barrier.
I can be sure that if I asked you to give a similarly detailed explanation of how a single species genome could produce the much bigger variations seen in trilobites - in the absence of massive artificial selection - you would complain loudly. But it is no less fair than your demand.
quote:
You claim the genome can change so show us how it does so.
You mean that you want us to repeat the examples of the pocket mice and the peppered moth and the Scottish fold cat all over again ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 9:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 747 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 10:18 AM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 746 of 1385 (852023)
05-06-2019 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 743 by Faith
05-06-2019 9:35 AM


Re: Restating the question
Faith writes:
The necessary changes are what I was asking for but you haven't even tried to spell them out.
This is the sort of stuff you could look for yourself, but we all know you actually don't want to know, you just want to dispute stuff that you're not capable of understanding.
The chimp genome was only sequenced a short time ago, so it's asking rather a lot but the information is there if you really want it. Here's a starter from Nature. I wish you luck.
quote:
Abstract
Human-chimpanzee comparative genome research is essential for narrowing down genetic changes involved in the acquisition of unique human features, such as highly developed cognitive functions, bipedalism or the use of complex language. Here, we report the high-quality DNA sequence of 33.3 megabases of chimpanzee chromosome 22. By comparing the whole sequence with the human counterpart, chromosome 21, we found that 1.44% of the chromosome consists of single-base substitutions in addition to nearly 68,000 insertions or deletions. These differences are sufficient to generate changes in most of the proteins. Indeed, 83% of the 231 coding sequences, including functionally important genes, show differences at the amino acid sequence level. Furthermore, we demonstrate different expansion of particular subfamilies of retrotransposons between the lineages, suggesting different impacts of retrotranspositions on human and chimpanzee evolution. The genomic changes after speciation and their biological consequences seem more complex than originally hypothesized.
DNA sequence and comparative analysis of chimpanzee chromosome 22 | Nature
Oh, and by the way, it's another practical use of the concept of the UCA.

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"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 9:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 748 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 10:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1697 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 747 of 1385 (852024)
05-06-2019 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 745 by PaulK
05-06-2019 10:12 AM


Re: Restating the question
I know you know that a chimp genome can't produce a human fingernail and I also know that you don't know how or why that is the case, and neither do I, but we all know that what I'm saying is true: a genome is specific to the species and produces ONLY the charcteristics of that species. You know it, I know it,, everybody here knows it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by PaulK, posted 05-06-2019 10:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by Theodoric, posted 05-06-2019 10:24 AM Faith has replied
 Message 751 by PaulK, posted 05-06-2019 10:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1697 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 748 of 1385 (852025)
05-06-2019 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 746 by Tangle
05-06-2019 10:17 AM


Re: Restating the question
I'm still waiting for someone to show how the changes occur that need to occur to get a human being from whatever ancestral ape you choose. Detailing differences does not answer that question, it doesn't show how you get from the one to the other. You certainly can't assume that each change just happens to occur. There must be many, hundreds, thousands, of variations that are likely to pop up before you get even one change toward the outcome you have in mind. Spell it out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 746 by Tangle, posted 05-06-2019 10:17 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 754 by Tangle, posted 05-06-2019 10:53 AM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 749 of 1385 (852027)
05-06-2019 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 747 by Faith
05-06-2019 10:18 AM


Re: Restating the question
I know you know that a chimp genome can't produce a human fingernail
No one has made such a claim. Do you have anything other than fallacious arguments?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 10:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 750 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 10:26 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1697 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 750 of 1385 (852029)
05-06-2019 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 749 by Theodoric
05-06-2019 10:24 AM


Re: Restating the question
Why don't you just read through the argument for a change? You say really stupid irrelevant things because you don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 749 by Theodoric, posted 05-06-2019 10:24 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 752 by Theodoric, posted 05-06-2019 10:33 AM Faith has replied

  
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