Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 60 (9208 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Skylink
Post Volume: Total: 919,430 Year: 6,687/9,624 Month: 27/238 Week: 27/22 Day: 9/9 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
ringo
Member (Idle past 662 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 646 of 1385 (851760)
05-01-2019 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
05-01-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Faith writes:
AND that nobody has offered a pathway for getting genetic changes from one species genome to that of another species although I've asked and asked.
Since nobody has ever demonstrated a barrier, there's no need to offer a pathway.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 4:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 5:11 PM ringo has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17909
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 647 of 1385 (851761)
05-01-2019 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
05-01-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
quote:
Yes an explanation of the fossil order would be nice but the evidence for the Flood is compelling without it.
There is no evidence for the Flood that gets anywhere near “compelling”. The order in the fossil record is compelling evidence against your views.
quote:
Also, I don't think the fossil order itself is all that compelling anyway, it's more of an illusion than a reality.
I don’t think that telling silly lies does anything to diminish the strength of the evidence.
quote:
There is not really anything objective that defines why one living form should precede the others over millions of years, it's all imaginative
Aside from the fact that the order exists independently of dating there is the fact that evolution does take considerable time in ordinary conditions.
quote:
AND the idea of millions of years belies the fact that variation in one species is quite extensive over merely a few hundred years in reality. AND that nobody has offered a pathway for getting genetic changes from one species genome to that of another species although I've asked and asked.
The first “fact” is not generally true of wild species and therefore not a fact at all. For the second the question is vague - and it has been pointed out the the differences between human and chimp are within the range of available mutations.
quote:
These questions are far more important than the supposedly fossil order.
But neither presents a solid case against evolution - and neither is evidence for the Flood at all. The order in the fossil record is far stronger as evidence against your views because there is no reasonable prospect of an explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 4:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 648 of 1385 (851762)
05-01-2019 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
05-01-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
An explanation for the obvious fossil order and undeniable correlation with depth and rock formations is requisite for any theory. Any "theory" that doesn't have one is a non-starter.
Only one of the many fatal flaws that we post and you ignore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 4:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 5:03 PM JonF has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1655 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 649 of 1385 (851763)
05-01-2019 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Dredge
04-15-2019 1:47 AM


Progressive Creation - no predictive ability - take 2
Take 2 - you did not respond to first reply ...
RAZD writes:
Progressive Creation" has no predictive ability
It does, actually- PC predicts that there will be scientifically inexplicable gaps in the fossil record. This prediction is confirmed by the evidence.
The theory of evolution does explain gaps in the fossil record by predicting proximity to ancestral and descendant populations ” the temporal/spatial matrix ” such that populations can evolve by steps from one to the other. This is based on observations of existing data and what that data shows for the evolutionary paths. This means there are scientifically explicable gaps in the fossil record, ones with testable restrictions/requirements.
This is also tested and validated whenever “missing links” are found: do they have intermediate traits that show it falls on that step by step path? If yes, then the new fossil is a transitional stage/fossil and the prediction is validated.
This was tested and validated with the search for (and discovery of) Tiktaalik: they went to a location and geologic age of rock deposits meeting the temporal/special matrix for a “missing link” (intermediate or transitional fossil) and there it was.
There are currently no “scientifically inexplicable gaps in the fossil record” that do not meet this temporal/special proximity requirement/prediction.
If PC previously predicted this was a case of a “scientifically inexplicable gap in the fossil record” it failed this test. Evolution 1, PC O.
Again, AS MENTIONED BEFORE, PC makes no predictions regarding times and locations for new fossil finds, no predictions of testable scientific value. It is pseudoscience and religious ad hoc wishful imagination. To be a theory of scientific value it needs to be falsifiable ” it needs a prediction that if happens it falsifies the theory.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Dredge, posted 04-15-2019 1:47 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 786 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 6:01 PM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 650 of 1385 (851764)
05-01-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by JonF
05-01-2019 4:50 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
A "non-starter" at EvC is of no particular concern, simply to be expected. But I already gave an explanation which you aren't bothering to answer. That's to be expected too of course.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by JonF, posted 05-01-2019 4:50 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by JonF, posted 05-01-2019 5:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 651 of 1385 (851765)
05-01-2019 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by ringo
05-01-2019 4:27 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
I have as a matter of fact demonstrated a barrier in how breeds develop by "using up" genetic variation, which is most apparent in "purebreds." That is a natural outcome of selection processes whether domestic or "natural," which shows that any given species does have a natural end to how it can vary in any given direction. For the ToE to be true you need more genetic variation but instead the more varieties you produce the less genetic variability you have. This is easily understood by anyone willing to think a little.
But another way to put it is that a species is governed by its own genome which plays out in many variants of that species and only that species. It's built into the genome itself. To get from a species to another species would require genetic changes beyond those built into the genome, and that can't happen, or if it could it would require so much trial and error it could only produce millions of monsters before it could produce one viable new trait not possessed by the original genome. This too is easily understood with a little thinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by ringo, posted 05-01-2019 4:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by RAZD, posted 05-01-2019 5:23 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 653 by ringo, posted 05-01-2019 5:26 PM Faith has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1655 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 652 of 1385 (851766)
05-01-2019 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 651 by Faith
05-01-2019 5:11 PM


simplistic explanation, simple invalidation.
I have as a matter of fact demonstrated a barrier in how breeds develop by "using up" genetic variation, which is most apparent in "purebreds." That is a natural outcome of selection processes whether domestic or "natural," which shows that any given species does have a natural end to how it can vary in any given direction. ...
This has been discussed before, and your explanation fails when we look at general cases and not just purebreds. This is because mutations occur in nature, but are weaned out to preserve purebreds. There is no natural process known that replicates this removal of mutations in natural selection.
In fact the opposite often happens where the mutation is selected by being beneficial to survival and reproduction. This has been demonstrated to you time and again, but you fail to simply read and accept the information ... what you often complain about from people not taking your position as having value.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 5:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 662 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 653 of 1385 (851767)
05-01-2019 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 651 by Faith
05-01-2019 5:11 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Faith writes:
I have as a matter of fact demonstrated a barrier in how breeds develop by "using up" genetic variation, which is most apparent in "purebreds." That is a natural outcome of selection processes whether domestic or "natural,"
On the contrary, artificial selection arbitrarily decides what characteristics are "desirable". It deliberately throws away mutations, shrinking the gene pool. There is no such limitation on natural selection. Every mutation gets its chance to succeed.
Faith writes:
To get from a species to another species would require genetic changes beyond those built into the genome, and that can't happen...
What I'm asking you is to SHOW that it can't happen, not just assert. You have to show an actual mechanism in the chemistry of the DNA.
Faith writes:
... or if it could it would require so much trial and error it could only produce millions of monsters before it could produce one viable new trait not possessed by the original genome.
There's plenty of time for that. You can't use your erroneous ideas about the age of the earth to back up your erroneous ideas about evolution. That's circular.
Edited by ringo, : Spealing.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 5:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 5:35 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 654 of 1385 (851768)
05-01-2019 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by ringo
05-01-2019 5:26 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Too tedious to argue about all this here right now. Go ahead and declare yourself the winner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by ringo, posted 05-01-2019 5:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by ringo, posted 05-01-2019 5:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 662 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 655 of 1385 (851770)
05-01-2019 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Faith
05-01-2019 5:35 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Faith writes:
Too tedious to argue about all this here right now.
Yes, that's your classic run-away strategy. Soon enough you'll be back making the same old same old claims and also claiming that you answered the rebuttals. Let this be a record that you didn't.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 5:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(3)
Message 656 of 1385 (851771)
05-01-2019 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Faith
05-01-2019 5:03 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
You gave no explanation. An explanation must include describing the forces and environmental factors that affect the fossils and how they act to produce the observed pattern. The order of the fossil record is a critical requirement for any theory precisely because nobody has found any near-plausible explanation other than time, lots of it, plus change over time. Something so obvious for which there's only one known explanation (despite many attempts at others) is strong evidence for the theory that has the explanation.
YECs have come up with sciency-sounding labels for their attempts at explaining. Ecological zonation, hydrodynamic sorting, differential escape. Each of them or any combination of them has been trivially refuted as a possible explanation. Most of those refutations have been posted in your threads. We see the result.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 5:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.6


(3)
Message 657 of 1385 (851775)
05-01-2019 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Faith
05-01-2019 2:00 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
But please, carry on with the ridiculous evo stuff.
Thank you for your permission. I believe they probably will.
But, it is good to have this other religious claptrap in comparison with Dredge's if only to emphasize how your two views differ so radically while on the evo side everyone appeasers to be citing similar information and the same conclusions. Consistency. Something you religionist's seem incapable of producing.
That has to do, of course, with the fact that the former are fantasies open to personal embellishment while the latter is not. Real facts, not your made-up ones, are too powerful to be reputed by your book no matter which interpretation either one of you care to apply.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 2:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 9.5


(3)
Message 658 of 1385 (851777)
05-01-2019 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
05-01-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Faith writes:
Yes an explanation of the fossil order would be nice but the evidence for the Flood is compelling without it.
No it is not. Your fantasy flood can only be true if time is suspended, and gravity is suspended, and hydrology is suspended, and sedimentology is suspended, and thermodynamics is suspended, and chemistry is suspended, and biology is suspended, and geology is suspended, and all of physics is suspended.
Faith writes:
Also, I don't think the fossil order itself is all that compelling anyway,
Well of course you don't, because you cannot explain or understand it so you have to pretend it doesn't exit. We've watched you do this every single time.
Faith writes:
it's more of an illusion than a reality.
Really? Please point out the specific illusion.
The reality is that your whole flood scenario is a delusion.
Faith writes:
There is not really anything objective that defines why one living form should precede the others over millions of years, it's all imaginative.
What? Are you seriously disputing that ancestors live before their descendants?
Faith writes:
AND the idea of millions of years belies the fact that variation in one species is quite extensive over merely a few hundred years in reality.
In what way does the amount of variation in one species refute the fact that life has existed for several BILLIONS of years.
We know that the rates at which genetic variation fluctuates within natural populations is highly variable, so whatever point you are trying to make here fails.
Faith writes:
AND that nobody has offered a pathway for getting genetic changes from one species genome to that of another species although I've asked and asked.
What the heck are you talking about? Genomes are passed on from ancestors to descendants through reproduction with new mutations slightly modifying the genome every generation. Sometimes lines of descent go extinct and sometimes they are the beginning of dense lines of descent.
Faith writes:
These questions are far more important than the supposedly fossil order.
Really? How do the answers in any way support you fantasy flood?
The thing is we can explain the fossil order in a way that is consistent with the principles of physics, chemistry, geology, biology and all other relevant science and you cannot.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 4:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 3:34 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 659 of 1385 (851802)
05-02-2019 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by Tanypteryx
05-01-2019 9:38 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Amazing how well you understand what a worldwide Flood would do, just staggering considering that we have no witness information from that time. I'll believe Noah though that he and his family and all the animals of earth were saved on a big boat that took him a hundred years to build. Time suspended? Huh? And all the rest of it. Sorry, God authored the report of the Flood and He has a bit more credibility than you.
But the main evidence of the Flood is the sedimentary strata found all over the planet and their fossil contents. The idea that such layers of completely different sediments usually demarcated by sharp straight lines between them, would just happen to occur hundreds of millions of years apart so regularly up the geological column is laughably absurd. And bazillions of fossilized dead things in them perfectly reflects the purpose of the Flood, to kill all the land creatures not saved on the ark. This evidene is really quite apparent if you just open your eyes.
Oh, and the Flood would have provided the conditions for fossilization that just couldn't occur on the usual scenario spanning those hundreds of millions of years. Really you all need to wake up.
*How* the Flood could have happened is another subject, and since nobody here has been able to answer my repeated question about how one species could genetically descend from another either, I think we can leave such questions for later.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-01-2019 9:38 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by DrJones*, posted 05-02-2019 4:08 PM Faith has replied
 Message 664 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2019 4:22 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 666 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-02-2019 4:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 667 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2019 4:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 670 by JonF, posted 05-02-2019 6:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2338
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 660 of 1385 (851809)
05-02-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Faith
05-02-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
and since nobody here has been able to answer my repeated question about how one species could genetically descend from another either
mutation + natural selection

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 3:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 4:12 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024