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Author | Topic: Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
caffeine writes: It seems to me that all you're really saying is that western Christian culture is diverse. But of course that's going to be the case if we talking about something so big. Exactly. Western Civilization was Christians and Jews and Muslims and just about every religion that ever existed. And a significant part of that was based on one group saying the other group were NOT Christians. here is almost nothing that is common to all Christians that relates to society or civilization beyond a belief that everybody else are not Christians and are not civilized. What we call Western Civilization is NOT based on Christian ideals or laws or morals or forms of Governments or economy or science. In the US Constitution we went so far as to put in prohibitions against Christian Government. Particularly when we look at the Western Civilization of the last few hundred years it would be more realistic to call it a Western Muslim civilization since so much of it is based on adopting the Arabic numerals and Arabic science and those actually are common to all that we consider Western Civilization.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1534 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Faith writes: Source please. The papacy murdered 50 million Bible believing Christians during the Inquisition."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This has been discussed before. Here's a brief summary of the evidence with links:
Message 223
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What we call Western Civilization is NOT based on Christian ideals or laws or morals or forms of Governments or economy or science. Funny how it's traditionally been known as "Christendom" then. Your revisionist zeal is just weird, to be polite about it. It's hard to fathom the hatred you must have for all things Christian to say the things you say, and yet call yourself a Christian. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I found this. Lemme look up Faiths links below....
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith writes: Funny how it's traditionally been known as "Christendom" then. It was only called "Christendom" by some Christians. But back in the 1950s when I was in the segment of history course dealing with the last few hundred years it was called Western Civilization not Western Christian Civilization. And that was when I was attending a Christian School affiliated with one of the recognized Protestant Christian sects, not some Christian Avoidance School.
Faith writes: It's hard to fathom the hatred you must have for all things Christian to say the things you say, and yet call yourself a Christian. But once again, reality shows you are simply once again wrong and just misrepresenting my position. I do not hate Christianity. I do find the picayune perversion of Christianity based on Calvinism, the modern Biblical Inerrancy movement and the Christian Cult of Ignorance and Dishonesty to be deplorable.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1534 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hello Faith,
Your first source link is broken. Your second link says this:
quote: And this: quote: In short, your "sources" for your lie that the Catholic church killed 50 million protestants during the Inquistions is first off a broken link and a link that disputes your lie."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Too bad, that original link had a really good complete copy. Well, here are some other possibilities:
https://www.jamesjpn.net/...-christ-killed-by-the-roman-pope ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER KILLED BY THE PAPACY IN THE MIDDLE ... Pages 1-50 - Flip PDF Download | FlipHTML5 I included Cripplegate as a different opinion but they focus on the Spanish INquisition, which was only a very small part of the persecutions by the RCC over the centuries. I found Plaisted's article in book form at the first link above and just printed it out for myself. He's very thorough. He's working with estimates down the centuries that can't usually be traced but the way he puts it together he's very careful and to my mind the fifty million is believable, especially since there were many much higher estimates than that. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Ann Coulter said he is going for "amnesty", though her only evidence was that he was considering giving Democrats a deal for the 700,000 Dreamers (there are another 1.1 million undocumented children that weren't part of DACA)the Democrats keep harping about (Democrats apparently threw under the bus the 10 million ADULT undocumented/illegal immigrants a good while back)
Trump (absent any Democratic suggestions!) unilaterally brought up the possibility of amnesty for all the illegals.
quote: Here was his Tweet
quote: The fact is that this whole "Border Wall" issue is an argument about something that has already existed for decades. The argument is about whether to call it a "fence" or a "wall". Trump, thankfully, isn't making a lot of noise about the nuclear policy (to illegal immigrants) of E VERIFY, which would run most illegal immigrants out of the country. 86% of Americans support "self deportation" policies that prevent illegal immigrants from being hired.
quote: Trump did say "we need to leave borders behind" in 2013. Trump might have jumped into the presidential race to help turn public opinion IN FAVOR of immigration rights. He has done very little to stop people from coming to the country using a visitation VISA. As long as he does not promote "self deportation" policies, like placing big penalties on employers who hire illegals, and using technology to catch workers (and their employers), then those who visit can still get work. The big phoney "wall" fight, by Trump, might be a stealth pro-immigration tactic. Keep attention away from the policies that would surely cause mass (self) deportations. Trump seems to be trying to get Democrats to ask for amnesty for the 10-11 million illegals (who they have thrown under the bus and sold out) in exchange for "the wall"? I suspected as much, back in the campaign, as my 2016 posts here can attest to.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3
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Esther Cepeda made this big mistake: reminding (actually alerting the ignorant) folks that illegal immigrants can only exist due to (relatively) weak laws against employers who hire them.
The article starts by attacking Trump, then the slide into dangerous territory (alerting the American people of the actual issue).
quote: The meat of the (dangerous) article follows. I will skip to the end. (Employer "abuses", that is "false documents" & "false papers" being involved in the hiring process, are condemned by Cepeda)
quote: The employer fine is not big enough, huh? Next, do we need tougher documents to fake? So is Cepeda going to complain that the government isn't using technology to compile a database of illegal immigrants? (I won't ask about what the "solution" is to the "problem" of illegal individuals) (EDIT: Mitt Romney said that depriving immigrants of work will cause them to "self deport" due to the simple human-misery factor. No significant I.C.E. raids necessary.) Why complain about a "wall" (OR "The Wall") when the far more draconian type of stuff is strongly suggested by Cepeda's article? The population is ignorant and I think it is better if it stays that way. Shut up Esther! Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Actually, my gardener is an illegal immigrant from Zimbabwe and he does an excellent job. And he is one of the most educated people I've ever met. In Zim he did vote for Mugabe's Party from 1980 until the 2000's. He got what he deserved. Karma.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Examples:
"We don't NEED The Wall" "The Wall isn't a good way to solve the PROBLEM" "There are better ways to solve the PROBLEM" These words reflect some person brainwashed by society against foreigners. As if there is a NEED to stop foreigners from coming. As if immigrants are, at best, an ecological nuisance (probably these loaded comments, above, imply something far worse than an excessive environmental threat). I am saying Democrats, while not so explicit in their (I am calling a spade a spade) bigotry, are so conditioned toward an anti-immigration mindset, that they cannot begin to be able to look at immigrants as a genuinely good thing. The scary thing is that Democrats don't even see their words as - even - implicitly racist. (The feeling, among Democrats, seems to be that immigrants should see Democrats as kindly defending the "unworthy refuse" simply as a charitable gesture, and charity requires nothing more than something slightly better than what the "wretched" of the earth typically get. The poor migrants get awful treatment, generally, so that means "almost awful" should be sweet treats for the miserable. Democrats only need to be noticed, by immigrants, as not-as-bad as Republicans, so the riding on the back of moral relativism carries the day, every day, for the "blue" party.)
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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The poor migrants get awful treatment, generally, so that means "almost awful" should be sweet treats for the miserable. Democrats only need to be noticed, by immigrants, as not-as-bad as Republicans, so the riding on the back of moral relativism carries the day, every day, for the "blue" party. So you were expecting something different from a racist nation? A nation whose history has always been racist on both the left and the right? The PROBLEM today is the Dems, as racist as they are, are taking semi reasonable stances on the issue. Far short of where a liberal wants to see but far from the violent, cruel and inhumane policies of the present republican party and that dumbass narcissist we the people let them put in the oval office. Unfortunately, in this government, this is the best we're going to get until the next election. Until then we continue to deliberately jail, hurt and kill brown people and their babies. Anti-democracy forces in place. Not going to be easy to overcome. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Democrats make no arguments which demonstrate the fact the immigrants help us.
Democrats are just attempting to make themselves sound like paradigms of mercy and charity. I see little evidence that Democrats are attempting to defeat the anti-immigrant mindset in the country. I feel that immigrants help create more jobs NET. I feel that immigrants help the towns stay alive. I feel that immigrants help the fiscal budget situation of cities, towns, states, and the federal government. But if Democrats won't make the case (for those who can't vote) then they SHOULD at least have a policy that takes some powerful (but untrue) anti-immigration arguments OFF THE TABLE. The best thing to do to help take anti-immigration arguments off the table would be to have (as an idea) a flat 5% income tax on all immigrants, so there won't be a fiscal & tax argument available to the anti-immigration side. KILL some of the most powerful arguments that prevent Open Border type policies. Democrats need to make the case for Open Borders, and must significantly increase legal immigration levels while making the necessary case. It is possible for an honest & sincere Democratic candidate to tell the people that Open Borders is a desirable destination for the country's policy-makers to travel toward. Simply tell the people the truth, and promise not to (even begin to attempt to) implement a "soft border" policy until reputable polls consistently demonstrate 50% support. (It is not like a soft border can be snuck in anyway. There would obviously be lots of deliberation) Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
LNA writes: I feel that immigrants help create more jobs NET. I feel that immigrants help the towns stay alive. I feel that immigrants help the fiscal budget situation of cities, towns, states, and the federal government. My Union is largely a democratic institution. I myself am a political moderate. Our rival chain is hiring "temporary workers" at $15.00 an hour. Yet we dont offer the same deal for unionized new hires. Personally, I have no problem with new workers, immigrants or not. UNLESS..... They take my spot and force me to do harder work elsewhere. ORMy hours (our hours) get cut by hiring them. In a way, I think the populists feel the same way. Some may be racist, but the reason they want a wall is to preserve their own standard of living. Silly Rabbits! Little do they realize that the US needs more workers to help pay social security for all us old codgers. Edited by Phat, : sub title Edited by Phat, : added jabberwockyChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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