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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 707 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 121 of 453 (848898)
02-18-2019 7:47 AM


I already posted a long post on this Josephus Ant. Book 20 IN ANOTHER THREAD.
(it was like 90% my own words)
EvC Forum: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
See my post 1659
Theodoric did not respond in any meaningful way.

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 381 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 122 of 453 (848907)
02-18-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by LamarkNewAge
02-17-2019 9:59 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LamarknewAge writes:
My problem with the methodology starts with:
Jesus Mythers generally start out with a conclusion then search for an excuse to justify the conclusion.
The proper default position is that something doesn't exist until there is solid evidence that it does exist - e.g. unicorns, fairies.
It's believers who start with the conclusion that Jesus did exist and grasp at every straw to try to support it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 9:59 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:54 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18146
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 453 (848913)
02-18-2019 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
02-18-2019 11:08 AM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
If either a unicorn or fairy had impacted human history as much as a supposed mythological figure, the conclusion that I would start with is that there must be something to this character.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 02-18-2019 11:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2019 12:58 PM Phat has replied
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 02-18-2019 1:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9465
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 124 of 453 (848915)
02-18-2019 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
02-18-2019 12:54 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Odd that you don't think that about Mohammed or Joseph Smith or......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 381 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 453 (848916)
02-18-2019 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
02-18-2019 12:54 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Phat writes:
If either a unicorn or fairy had impacted human history as much as a supposed mythological figure, the conclusion that I would start with is that there must be something to this character.
You keep bringing that up and the answer is still the same. The impact of the character is caused by belief in the character - and by charlatans exploiting that belief for political or economic gain. Neither the belief nor the ulterior motives add to the reality of the character.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:37 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18146
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 453 (848920)
02-18-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
02-18-2019 1:00 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
OK, but my question would then be why *this* character? Why not another traveling rabbi? Why did Jesus catch on while lesser brands fizzled?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 02-18-2019 1:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 02-18-2019 1:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 129 by Theodoric, posted 02-18-2019 2:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18146
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 453 (848921)
02-18-2019 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Tangle
02-18-2019 12:58 PM


Jesus Drove The Franchise War
Tangle writes:
Odd that you don't think that about Mohammed or Joseph Smith or......
I'll saythis much. Neither Muhammed nor (especially) Joseph Smith would have even been widely known had Jesus not started the trend. Muhammed was Burger King to Jesus McDonalds. Islam had their own hero to emulate...and in opposition to those pesky European Catholics. Same with our Mormon franchise here in America. They needed to have their own brand. The next question is what did jesus originally represent that made Him a popular brand? Hope for oppressed downtrodden people? Liberation from stern secular governments? Liberation from authoritarian religions? Or perhaps you guys will argue that He became a myth that supported the creation of a franchise.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2019 12:58 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2019 2:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 381 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 128 of 453 (848922)
02-18-2019 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:37 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Phat writes:
OK, but my question would then be why *this* character? Why not another traveling rabbi? Why did Jesus catch on while lesser brands fizzled?
Buddha caught on. Mohammed caught on. Joseph Smith caught on. What does catching on have to do with the validity of the message?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8927
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 129 of 453 (848924)
02-18-2019 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:37 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Mormonism and Islam caught on while their founders were still alive. Why does catching on imply that Jesus was a historical figure? Christianity "caught on" over 100 years after this character supposedly was executed. Seems to be a problem there.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9465
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 130 of 453 (848925)
02-18-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:44 PM


Re: Jesus Drove The Franchise War
Phat writes:
I'll saythis much. Neither Muhammed nor (especially) Joseph Smith would have even been widely known had Jesus not started the trend.
I think the Jews would argue that Jesus was a newcomer to the trend. But in any case, the point is that other successful brands are available so your point is rebutted.
The next question is what did jesus originally represent that made Him a popular brand? Hope for oppressed downtrodden people? Liberation from stern secular governments? Liberation from authoritarian religions?
Sure and political opportunism etc.
Or perhaps you guys will argue that He became a myth that supported the creation of a franchise.
He probably WAS a myth that supported the creation of a franchise. And it's probably not a single He.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 707 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 131 of 453 (848942)
02-18-2019 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Theodoric
02-17-2019 8:48 PM


Origen is used to show the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist before 250 A.D.
Theodoric keeps blowing the Testimonium Flavianum (Josephus Ant. Book 18) flute.
He has really been performing a clever "bait and switch", because he keeps making comments like this, to "prove" that the Book 20 reference to "brother of Jesus called Christ" was forged.
quote:
As for Josephus you are less than honest in your comments. IN the Testimonium he is reputed to say.
quote:
He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ.
Not something an observant Jew would say. But more importantly it does not matter. This is not evidence of Jesus. It is evidence that people believed in him. No corroboration. Find corroboration.
Theodoric is not only a one note flute, but it always is with a bait and switch.
He follows this pattern.
ONE:
Ask for first-century documents mentioning Christians and Biblical characters.
TWO:
Wait for somebody to present them, which they will
THREE:
Change the subject (such as Josephus Ant. Book 20) to another (Book 18).
FOUR:
Claim that one bit of evidence for later Christian tampering causes ALL other evidence to be thrown out.
(Did I miss anything?)
Now, what about Theodoric's law code?
This legal technicality argument is getting old.
(What law code are you applying anyway)
You push him long enough, and he responds:
quote:
As for Josephus, you miss my point completely. The one Jesus reference puts the other into doubt.
I think we all get your point.
But you can only really say the Testimonium Flavianum (Josephus Ant. Book 18 reference to Jesus: "He was the Christ") is likely a POST 250 CHRISTIAN INSERTION because Origen did not mention it, and the absence of mention by Origen is all the more impressive because he positively comments on Josephus' lack of belief in Jesus as Messiah. The evidence does seem to indicate that the TF is an insertion from around 300 A.D.
But Origin did say that Josephus mentioned the "brother of Jesus, called Christ" and he specifically described a murder. Origin even attempted to interpret Josephus' comments as somehow supportive of the idea that the killing of James caused the Temple to be destroyed.
Yet there were no textual changes, to Jospehus' Antiquities, that worked that powerful Christian idea (clearly held from the mid-second century Hegesippus through Origen in the first half of the third century and INTO THE FORTH) into the Josephus text.
The BOOK 20 (not the Book 18 TF!) text has no evidence of changes to fit Christian theological views of the history of the destruction of the Temple.
Origen lived from 184-253.
During Origens time:
The "brother of Jesus called Christ" in Book 20 was in Josephus' text, it seems.
The "He was the Christ" in Book 18 (Testimonium Flavianum) was not.
Theodoric says, "The one Jesus reference puts the other into doubt".
I can't prove that there were no changes, to Book 20, before 200 A.D. But it seems that there were no changes after 200. Changes (major ones too) to Book 18, around 300, only prove that Book 18 was changed.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2019 8:48 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22275
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 132 of 453 (915280)
02-12-2024 10:56 AM


From the Who Owns the Standard Definition of Evolution thread, starting at Message 323:
PaulK writes:
Percy writes:
PaulK writes:
Or, for another comparison we don’t know when or where Jesus was born, nor do we know much of his ancestry. But no sensible person concludes that Jesus didn’t exist based on those facts.
I just want to go on record as considering myself a sensible person, and there are other people who I think would say that I seem to be a sensible person.
Then - if you conclude that Jesus didn’t exist - I hope that you have more than just those two facts.
I don't think anyone has any facts.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 02-12-2024 10:59 AM Percy has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17797
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 133 of 453 (915281)
02-12-2024 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Percy
02-12-2024 10:56 AM


The facts I cited were
we don’t know when or where Jesus was born, nor do we know much of his ancestry.
I don’t think we disagree on those.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 10:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 11:04 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22275
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 134 of 453 (915282)
02-12-2024 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by PaulK
02-12-2024 10:59 AM


PaulK in Message 133 writes:
The facts I cited were
we don’t know when or where Jesus was born, nor do we know much of his ancestry.
I don’t think we disagree on those.
No disagreement from me, but I do conclude from the lack of information that he was not a real person.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 02-12-2024 10:59 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Granny Magda, posted 02-12-2024 12:09 PM Percy has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 135 of 453 (915284)
02-12-2024 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Percy
02-12-2024 11:04 AM


Hi Percy,
I have to ask; how much information do you think we ought to have?
If Jesus was a real person he was, during his life, an obscure religious mystic, born of a no-account family in a cultural backwater. Most of his followers would have been illiterate and the Gospels never mention him producing writings of his own. He died young. It's not like we have a wealth of exacting records from that time and place. What is it exactly that you think we ought to see if he were real?
To be clear, I assume we're talking about a realistic Jesus here, not one who walked on water and got into fights with fruit trees. The idea of Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher who left an outsized legacy doesn't seem at all implausible to me.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 11:04 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Theodoric, posted 02-12-2024 12:54 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 137 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2024 1:49 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 2:22 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
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