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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 358 of 378 (846827)
01-12-2019 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Phat
01-11-2019 4:23 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
He will likely use his classic fallback position of *lack of evidence*.
Stop trying to predict what I'll say. You're really bad at it.
In fact, it's the evidence of Jesus' wounds that argues against resurrection. If He was the same Jesus with the same wounds, He didn't die and could not be resurrected. If the wounds were faked, there's no reason to think he was the same Jesus. If it really was the same Jesus but in a different body, the wounds are meaningless.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 4:23 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Stile, posted 01-14-2019 11:27 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 359 of 378 (846828)
01-12-2019 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Faith
01-11-2019 6:41 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Faith writes:
My scenario fits the actual scripture, his doesn't.
What the scripture actually says is that it was the same Jesus in the same body, not some magical new body.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 6:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Faith, posted 01-12-2019 3:52 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 363 of 378 (846909)
01-13-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Faith
01-12-2019 3:52 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Faith writes:
No it says He walked through walls.
No it doesn't.
quote:
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
It may be impressive that He knew where the disciples were but it doesn't say anything about Him walking through walls.
Faith writes:
I guess the mental task of inference is too hard for you?
As I have explained to GDR, the "inference" of a changed body makes the whole death and resurrection thing irrelevant.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Faith, posted 01-12-2019 3:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Faith, posted 01-13-2019 1:50 PM ringo has replied
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-13-2019 4:01 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 365 of 378 (846920)
01-13-2019 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Faith
01-13-2019 1:50 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Faith writes:
Yes you have a really terrible time with inference...
All I'm doing is pointing out that your inferences don't make any sense.
Faith writes:
.. and with the implications of Jesus' changed body.
And yet you do nothing to refute the implications. If it wasn't the same body, there was no resurrection and the wounds were fakes. It has to be the same body or the whole story is irrelevant.
Faith writes:
Sometimes I think you just spend all your time trying to come up with the most nonsensical objections possible to everything anyone says.
You flatter me. There aren't enough hours in the day to point out everything you're wrong about. I only pick the most egregious examples.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Faith, posted 01-13-2019 1:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 367 of 378 (846934)
01-13-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
01-13-2019 4:01 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
The inference is that Jesus somehow got in the room despite the locked doors.
Do you see any other meaning?
It doesn't seem likely to me that the disciples would have locked themselves inside a room. Their enemies could have just waited for them to come out. The context seems to be more like "behind closed doors" - i.e. private - i.e. nobody knew exactly where they were or what they were doing.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-13-2019 4:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Faith, posted 01-13-2019 6:29 PM ringo has replied
 Message 371 by Phat, posted 01-14-2019 10:38 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 372 of 378 (846966)
01-14-2019 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Faith
01-13-2019 6:29 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Faith writes:
What seems likely to you is not the point, what the words say is the point...
That's right - and the words don't say anything about walking through walls. They just say that Jesus appeared unexpectedly - unexpectedly because the disciples thought He was dead. By dwelling on insignificant details like how He got into the room, you miss the point of the story: He was alive.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Faith, posted 01-13-2019 6:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 373 of 378 (846968)
01-14-2019 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Phat
01-14-2019 10:38 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
The only reason you reject the walked through walls argument is because you limit the stories to what is evidenced in reality.
I reject the walking through walls argument because it isn't what the story says and it doesn't make sense.
Phat writes:
The whole point of some of the stories is to emphasize Jesus heightened abilities.
Not this one. The point of this story is that Jesus was unexpectedly alive.
The story of "doubting Thomas" is actually one of the most abused stories in the New Testament. Take the time to read John 20.
1. Jesus appeared to the disciples when Thomas wasn't there; He voluntarily showed them His wounds. (verse 19-20)
2. Later on, the disciples told Thomas that they had seen Jesus; Thomas said that he would believe it when he saw what they had seen. (verse 25)
3. Later again, Jesus appeared to the disiples again when Thomas was there; He voluntarily showed His wounds to Thomas (verse 27)
What you should notice is that despite your hatred of evidence, Jesus offered evidence. And He offered exactly the same evidence to Thomas that He had offered to the other disciples. It was the disciples that Thomas doubted.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Phat, posted 01-14-2019 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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