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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 339 of 378 (846503)
01-07-2019 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Percy
01-07-2019 5:01 PM


Re: The Gospels as evidence
Percy writes:
That Caesar arrived in Rome in 49 BC (very likely by crossing the Rubicon) is a historical necessity. The documentary and physical evidence we have of Caesar post 49 BC could not exist had he not arrived in Rome in 49 BC.
But the evidence for the very existence of Jesus is circumstantial at best. It isn't just that the evidence that Caesar arrived in Rome is stronger than the evidence of the resurrection. It's that the evidence that Caesar arrived in Rome is ironclad, while the evidence for the resurrection is completely absent and physically impossible anyway.
I guess we're discussing this on two fronts. The first is whether or not the Gospels themselves are evidence. This isn't about the strength of the argument. I cannot for the life of me understand your point that they aren't evidence. I agree that the evidence for the crossing of the Rubicon is very strong. And, yes we can argue about the strength of evidence that the Gospels provide, but they are evidence no matter how weak the evidence.
The last part of that is the point. You start from the position that the resurrection is an impossibility. Obviously then, from that POV, the Gospels have to be wrong and can't possibly be used as evidence.
Percy writes:
The gospels are not evidence at all because they are religious and contain all the reliability problems of religious writings, including their fantastical nature. There is nothing restricting how people string words together, but once so strung they are not suddenly evidence. They must be based upon observations of reality, something a resurrection cannot claim.
They claim that they are observations of reality, but as you stated the resurrection is a physical impossibility, then it is only evidence that they are wrong, they lied or they were writing metaphorically.
Percy writes:
This is just a story. There is no evidence confirming the resurrection. Now if after the resurrection Jesus had miraculously erected a monument along the road to Emmaus to mark the encounter, and if its sudden appearance had been recorded in the gospels, and if its ruins survived until today, then you've got evidence. Damn fine evidence.
This is pretty consistent with what most of the non-theists on this forum have written. You want certainty or something very near to it. That isn't available.
The only physical evidence other than that, is that the Christian faith came into existence when without the resurrection there is no good reason for it to have done so. Every debate and book that I have read on this subject sees the detractors starting from the premise that it is an impossibility, so any other explanation is more likely. If however we start with the premise that it is a possibility then the case for resurrection is much stronger than the case against it.
Percy writes:
For instance, your belief that Jesus spans two parallel universes (or whatever it is) I totally respect. This is what you believe as a matter of faith, and I respect that. But if you believe you have evidence of this then yes, I totally reject that belief.
I thought I'd comment on this. I have no evidence of this and I'm not sure I would characterize this as belief but as speculation. It just seems to fit my limited conceptual knowledge of physics.
Physics talks about parallel universes, multi universes etc. It does seem to me that this universe is the way it is because this is how we perceive it with our 5 senses. If we are only 4.5% of the detectable universe, I as a Christian can't help but speculate about God's universe and our own. Maybe with a different set of senses we would perceive a very different universe.
Percy writes:
There is no historical evidence of the resurrection, every indication that it is a religious belief, and likely that there is only one religious account upon which all others are ultimately based.
...and we have the freedom to disagree which is what makes faith possible.
BTW. Thank you again for the existence of this forum. I assume there is an ongoing internet record which will provide very strong evidence for its existence 2000 years from now. Hopefully anyway.
Maybe by then science will have discovered God's universe.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Percy, posted 01-07-2019 5:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 7:01 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 343 by Percy, posted 01-07-2019 9:28 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 352 of 378 (846658)
01-09-2019 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by ringo
01-08-2019 11:10 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:
If it was not the same body, it was not a resurrection and the wounds were faked.
There is a difference between resurrection and resuscitation. Lazarus or somebody who is brought back to life on the operating table are resuscitated.
Jesus' resurrection is about a renewed physicality, that isn't subject to entropy and isn't limited to the world that we perceive with our 5 senses.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by ringo, posted 01-08-2019 11:10 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by ringo, posted 01-10-2019 10:49 AM GDR has not replied

  
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