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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 269 of 378 (846368)
01-05-2019 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Phat
01-04-2019 6:30 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why would HE need to repent and repudiate His old lifestyle?
He did it for us.
That doesn't make any sense. What do we learn if He does it for us? And why does He have to do anything anyway? Why couldn't God just forgive us?
Phat writes:
Not that we now get a free pass but so that we are now able to do it...He had to do it first.
Why did He "have" to do it first? Why did He "have" to do it alt all?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 6:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 270 of 378 (846369)
01-05-2019 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by GDR
01-04-2019 9:55 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
The resurrection is recorded as historical.
Where? Outside the Bible?
GDR writes:
The resurrection requires that the laws of science as we currently know them have to be suspended. Science cannot be used to repudiate or confirm resurrection.
The same can be said for the Flood.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by GDR, posted 01-04-2019 9:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 3:28 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 280 of 378 (846394)
01-05-2019 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Phat
01-05-2019 2:18 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
Without Jesus, we would simply have an unknowable, undefinable, and made-up "God" within our mind. Irrelevant whether One actually existed or not.
All you've done is add another unknowable, undefianable and made- up "Jesus" within your mind. Irrelevant whether One actually existed or not.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 282 of 378 (846397)
01-05-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by GDR
01-05-2019 3:28 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
Sure, only in the Bible, but the Bible isn't just the testimony of one individual. As the Gospels are compilations of material there are numerous people testifying to the resurrection. In addition there are the Epistles with further testimony to the a historical resurrection.
A bigger pile of unreliable evidence doesn't make it more reliable. And of course each source was compiled by individuals with their own agenda and the canon was compiled by people with an agenda. I'd say that that adds up to a lot less than "historical evidence".
GDR writes:
The resurrection would not have left any lasting physical evidence.
That isn't the only way that science repudiates the resurrection. As far as science is concerned, the resurrection is as impossible as the Flood, as impossible as Jesus flying up to heaven by flapping His arms.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 3:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 4:10 PM ringo has replied
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 4:14 PM ringo has replied
 Message 289 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 5:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 286 of 378 (846408)
01-05-2019 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Phat
01-05-2019 4:10 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
Having an agenda in and of itself is not a disqualifier.
I didn't say it was. I said it makes literature unreliable as historical evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 4:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 287 of 378 (846410)
01-05-2019 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Phat
01-05-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
It takes different amounts of evidence to convince different people.
That's a bad attitude to start with. Some people don't need any evidence at all to be convinced and some people are too eager to grasp at the first straws that might support their desired outcome.
Phat writes:
... the absence of evidence is not a precondition towards evidence of absence.
When somebody claims that there "is" historical evidence, the absence of evidence definitely IS significant.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 4:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 316 of 378 (846468)
01-07-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by GDR
01-05-2019 5:23 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
Of course it is historical evidence. What you are talking about is its reliability.
The Bible is evidence that the Bible was written. We can not conclude from that evidence that anything in the Bible is true.
GDR writes:
I have agreed that if the resurrection is historical then it happened outside of the laws of known science. Your point is that the laws of science are immutable and as a result resurrection is impossible.
You're saying it backwards. If something is possible, we can determine whether or not it happened.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 5:23 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 4:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 317 of 378 (846470)
01-07-2019 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by GDR
01-05-2019 6:50 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
I don't believe that He came back to life as we know it. I believe that the resurrected Jesus was experienced in a body that bridged our universe and God's universe.
That isn't what resurrection means. You've been wasting everybody's time by claiming that you believe in the resurrection.
If He came back in a different spooky body, the wounds that He showed off were counterfeit and His whole "proof" that He was alive was a lie.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 6:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 4:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 318 of 378 (846471)
01-07-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
01-06-2019 7:55 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
... having little or no respect for Paul smacks of uninformed arrogance. Where are your credentials?
Where are Paul's credentials?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 7:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 319 of 378 (846472)
01-07-2019 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by NosyNed
01-06-2019 11:07 AM


Re: The gospels are evidence!
NosyNed writes:
The Rowling books are explicitly stated by the author to be unreliable evidence (i.e., fiction) for the existance of Hogwarts.
The gospels might therefore be taken as a tich more "reliable" than the Harry Potter series.
There are actually (at least) three different categories here:
1. Books that admit to being fiction - e.g. the Harry Potter books
2. Books that are fiction but claim not to be - e.g. Treasure Island, the Bible
3. Books that claim NOT to be fiction - e.g. All the President's Men

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by NosyNed, posted 01-06-2019 11:07 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 11:32 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 321 of 378 (846474)
01-07-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Phat
01-07-2019 11:32 AM


Re: The gospels are evidence!
Phat writes:
You've made up category 2. You have no proof of the claim.
Yes I do. Jim Hawkins claimed that the events in Treasure Island really happened. He even went so far as to have Dr. Livesey narrate the parts that he didn't witness himself.
Phat writes:
Pauls credentials are usually stated without controversy among scholars. Why do you insist on challenging them?
I challenge everything. That's the proper MO. How else can you hope to figure out what's true and what's false?
Phat writes:
One could ask where your credentials are.
I'm not the one who is making claims about Jesus.
Phat writes:
These arguments are far more than simple logic problems. Lots of things can be disproven on paper, but we are interested in whether the rubber meets the road(to Damascus) or not.
You have it backwards. We already know that as far as many Christian claims are concerned, we know that the rubber doesn't meet the road at all.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 11:32 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 349 of 378 (846532)
01-08-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by GDR
01-07-2019 4:09 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
OK, but once again there were 66 books written and so they are not all to be evaluated in the same way.
They were all evaluated the same way by the people who canonized them.
GDR writes:
Also, the Gospels were compilations and 2 of them claim to be accurate.
Treasure Island was compiled from the accounts of Jim Hawkins and Dr. Livesey, and it claims to be accurate. Both of those traits are quite common in fiction.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 4:09 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 350 of 378 (846533)
01-08-2019 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by GDR
01-07-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
It was a physical body but different.
If it was not the same body, it was not a resurrection and the wounds were faked.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 4:14 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 01-09-2019 8:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 353 of 378 (846692)
01-10-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by GDR
01-09-2019 8:48 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
Jesus' resurrection is about a renewed physicality, that isn't subject to entropy and isn't limited to the world that we perceive with our 5 senses.
If you put new tires on your car, few people would say it was a different car. If you move a map from the glove compartment to a new car, few people would say it was the same car. If you copy the scratches and dents from the old car to the new car, most people would say you were faking it.
If your idea of resurrection is just going back to being God, that isn't very impressive.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 01-09-2019 8:48 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 2:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 357 of 378 (846826)
01-12-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
01-11-2019 2:34 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Faith writes:
If your car underwent a transformation that made it able to drive through buildings without disturbing anything in the buildings or in the car while keeping its dents and scratches intact ("He was wounded for our transgressions")...
It would definitely not be the same car.
Faith writes:
... you might have to admit something in its essential nature had changed.
Yes. That's what I'm saying. Haven't you been following the thread at all? A resurrected Jesus is not the original Jesus. There is no need for the wounds to be there; they're faked.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 2:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
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