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Author | Topic: Counter-Apologetics | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
dWise1 writes: Good point. A Christian needs to always find some way to get every argument to come back around to the Christ. An atheist just needs to consider what's actually going on. A Christian has to also think always about what other Christians think of his solution; an atheist only needs to offer a solution. But I target ringo, here. He seems to have a problem with apologetics in general...citing them as simply wrong. I dunno...I've heard some good ones lately...one I shared with ICANT at the GD thread.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There is only one...the video by ravi zacharias. What do you find incredulous about his point? I thought it well done.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
no, although those two are a counterargument, in my opinion. Richard Carrier does not impress me.
A Response to "Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection Story". The counter-apologists use an entirely different set of facts and I intuitively question their overall motive for what they attempt to do. Jesus Did Exist: A Response to Richard Carrier. I suppose I'm picking on Carrier specifically, but he does annoy me with his claims. Dawkins is harmless...rather amusing, actually and I like him. Sam Harris uses some persuasive cultural arguments which should be entertained...if but to provide a broader perspective of reality. Quid Pro Quo, Dr.Lector. What dont you like about Parson? And what I wanted you to listen to is the one video by Ravi Zacharias.
here.(post 39) Its short. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You and i must be miles apart!
Granted you see no reason for religion or belief at all so i understand your position somewhat. To me Ravi is honest. His arguments appear rational to members of the choir. You see no reason to sing so i cant persuade you there. Our worldviews share little in common. I fail to see why his argument is bad however. Edited by Phat, : SpellingChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: I may mount an argument/discussion with you regarding these matters. I'll likely lose on points--your arguments are well presented. I’m quite happy to take on any argument from that little video. If the points above don’t cover it just tell me what the argument says - or any other apologetic argument you think good. Text is so much better for debate than video. When I tackle an opponent, my main thrust is to discern their motive for argument. Broken down, it simply means that believers want people to see why they believe and that belief is rational. You seem content with challenging this assumption. I would dare to ask you why? Do you honestly believe that people are better off believing--based on inconclusive evidence thus far--that Jesus was at best mortal and historical and that the God of the Bible...or any other religion---simply likely does not exist?
Apparently, I care about the truth and you don’t. Your conclusions, if I understand them correctly, are premature. In addition, I see nothing useful that could be gained through your argumentative persuasion for readers to think as you do. So to begin, I would ask you why you believe in your argument? I can see why a Christian apologist would defend their faith. What I don't see is why you defend yours? Here is a rough breakdown of the points presented in the video:
RZIM writes: The answers that Ravi and John provide are both kind and insightful. In their response, they clarify that: Any point of view is exclusive of all other points of view.The real question is which point of view is true. We can fairly test the major worldview by examining how well they answer four questions: A. Origin B. Meaning C. Morality D. Destiny The answer to each question must meet two criteria: A. It must correspond to the truth - matching empirical evidence or the tests of reason B. It must fit together with the answers to the three other questions - coherence. Finally, there are really only three fundamental worldviews: A. Only the universe exists (e.g., naturalism). B. Only God exists. C. Both God and the universe exist (e.g., Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). I encourage you to take some time to reflect on their answers. Are they right? Have they missed something?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
RZIM writes:
Finally, there are really only three fundamental worldviews:A. Only the universe exists (e.g., naturalism). B. Only God exists. C. Both God and the universe exist (e.g., Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). PaulK writes: Focusing on option 3, how I interpret it is that both materialism(cosmos) and spirit(gods of one type or another) exist. It is, of course, a belief in which we have no evidence for. Thus we can choose to consider it or we can choose option A. I have to say that option 3 includes drastically different worldviews, including (at least some forms of) Buddhism and Deism - and many others - as well as the Abrahamic faiths. I don’t think you can get a coherent set of answers to their questions out of it, so how can it qualify as a worldview? If we choose C, we then would go on to define which "God" we were talking about. Tangle limits everything to the book itself...whereas believers have described a more detailed God based on their beliefs(imaginations). So to start with, in matters of belief...why limit a character to a book? If the character being discussed is a Deity, would it not make sense that the character was larger than the book itself?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I just did. Look up a couple of posts.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'd have to really dissect what Ravi says concerning doctrine, but its nothing new that we have not discussed.
Add by Edit:L Thinking back, Im trying to compile a summary of *YOUR* Doctrine...lemme think....the message is whats important rather than the messenger....most Christians fail to follow the message (of Matthew 25) and only defend the messenger...Ravi does this...but we cant judge his mission...he may well hand out spare change as well... Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ooops
Add by Edit:L Thinking back, Im trying to compile a summary of *YOUR* Doctrine...lemme think....the message is whats important rather than the messenger....most Christians fail to follow the message (of Matthew 25) and only defend the messenger...Ravi does this...but we cant judge his mission...he may well hand out spare change as well...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You and Tangle both have taken a position that Jesus never existed apart from a historical figure (if at all) and then Tangle goes on to argue that without the resurrection, Christianity is irrelevant. You, on the other hand, argue that the message has value.
I'm trying to find out what it is that you think I should respect. I'll tell you what I respect about your message. You and jar both emphasize the *doing* part. Feeding. Clothing. Spare Changing. Loving. I respect that. What I challenge (yet find hard to attack) is the idea that there is no evidence for God, Jesus,(as God) or that a Holy Spirit is around that makes us humans any wiser. It's a challenge! You have a good argument. But as to what you should respect, I'm curious why you have dismissed the apologists. Like Parson. I see that you cant watch videos...which makes it tougher for me. It's hard to compile written apologetic arguments...since I myself am basically my own apologist after listening to so many others. I do know that I don't dismiss their intelligence nor motive as readily as you do. You confidently proclaim them as simply WRONG, as if you've somehow won an intellectual chess game. I challenge your premature conclusion, as I challenge PaulK. He seems to enjoy it!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Sorry...I prefer videos. Is it my fault you cant watch them? Here is another one...but I'll include the basic outline for you to challenge.
I'd rather have a more decisive win but it's hard to get you to pry them out of their videos. Outline:quote: So I guess our question is this: Is there such a thing as absolute morality? If so, how is it determined? I would argue that subscription to belief is essentially betting on a given absolute. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'll have to think about it.... Happy New Year, Ned...by the way
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
...After all, God's "absolute morality" doesn't even apply to Himself. I dont count the OT God. People simply wrote about Him and filled in their own thoughts in His words. Jesus is more reliable...apart from tipping over a few tables and killing a tree, He showed little in the way of instability.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The goats need to be burned up. It's like the human body and autophagy. Inefficient, diseased and weak cells get consumed and remade into healthy cells. Goats are a hindrance to human progression. Even if I were a goat, I would agree that I needed to get eliminated.
Now...to be specific...it is horrendous behavior was it the Nazis, for example. They had no right to judge which people were chosen and which were disposable. I would argue, however, that God not only has a right to autophage the inefficient humans, but He knows that it will lead to better people for His purpose in the future. you don't trust Him, so I can see your counter-arguments. And to be specific...people...humans themselves should never determine that they are acting on behalf of God. We need to focus on loving and helping each other more. Let God take care of the goats His own way and in His own time.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament. Not really. Jesus represents God in the NT. Jesus is hardly like Jehovah. Without Jesus, there would be no NT. Furthermore, the OT God never speaks in the NT except to say "this is my beloved son of whom I am well pleased. Hardly sounds like the vengeful OT god.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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