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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 256 of 378 (846343)
01-04-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Tangle
01-04-2019 10:44 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Ive heard that same point rxpressed by many Christians. Its even scriptural. My argument is based on ringos argument that the message itself is valid....im simply explaining how a metaphorical resurrection would still have value.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Tangle, posted 01-04-2019 10:44 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Tangle, posted 01-04-2019 3:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 257 of 378 (846346)
01-04-2019 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
01-04-2019 3:20 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
My argument is based on ringos argument that the message itself is valid
Of course the message is valid, it's universal and derivative!
....im simply explaining how a metaphorical resurrection would still have value.
Sure it would have the same value as all the others. The problem is that without the supposed resurection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without trace.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 3:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 11:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 258 of 378 (846349)
01-04-2019 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
01-04-2019 6:31 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Granted I would have problems giving everything up and having 100% trust.
(snip)
I argue that humans are incapable of being Christlike on our own due to original sin and selfish natures. Thus the resurrection made possible a way, but I myself am unable to follow the example.
"made possible a way" for what? A way to gain the reward without having to perform the tasks of serving the poor, comforting the afflicted, turning the other cheek?
Are you suggesting the resurrection is a cosmic cheat code for the penurious and the lazy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 6:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 259 of 378 (846350)
01-04-2019 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
01-04-2019 10:37 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
ringo writes:
In the context of Jesus, that doesn't make any sense. Why would HE need to repent and repudiate His old lifestyle?
He did it for us. Not that we now get a free pass but so that we are now able to do it...He had to do it first.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 01-04-2019 10:37 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 11:17 AM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 260 of 378 (846352)
01-04-2019 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
01-02-2019 2:39 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Sorry. I didn’t have any time to devote to EvC the last couple of days. I thought that I’d just reply to these posts.
ringo writes:
Nope. Nobody has suggested that science is immutable. As soon as you can produce scientific evidence that resurrection is possible, we can start to examine the evidence for resurrection of Jesus. Until then, resurrection is just as impossible as walking across the Pacific Ocean or flapping your arms to the moon.
Of course there is no scientific evidence as both of us well know. There is no scientific evidence for the vast majority of historical events except for the written evidence. Certainly some historical events are more fully documented than others.
The resurrection is recorded as historical. The resurrection requires that the laws of science as we currently know them have to be suspended. Science cannot be used to repudiate or confirm resurrection. It does require faith that the Gospel accounts are essentially accurate.
Phat writes:
Resurrection can be symbolic.
Phat writes:
Stop thinking of the resurrection as a necessary objective fact and start looking at it as a metaphorical ideal.
ringo writes:
Tell it to GDR.
Tangle writes:
But you've changed the point, which was that if the resurrection is not historical, then Christianity fails as a hypothesis.
Resurrection certainly works as a metaphor for all sorts of things. It works in our lives for anything from a spiritual awakening to overcoming an addiction. However, I agree with Tangle that without the resurrection being historical Christianity is a false religion. It is at best a positive social model, that is assuming that one focuses on the love thy neighbour part. However, that is simply cultural Christianity, although IMHO, it is actually closer to secular humanism.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 2:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 11:21 AM GDR has replied
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 01-05-2019 12:17 PM GDR has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 261 of 378 (846353)
01-04-2019 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Tangle
01-04-2019 3:51 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Tangle writes:
The problem is that without the supposed resurrection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without a trace.
So why did it not disappear again?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Tangle, posted 01-04-2019 3:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by AZPaul3, posted 01-04-2019 11:33 PM Phat has replied
 Message 263 by Tangle, posted 01-05-2019 3:18 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 262 of 378 (846354)
01-04-2019 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
01-04-2019 11:04 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
tangle writes:
The problem is that without the supposed resurrection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without a trace.
Phat writes:
So why did it not disappear again?
European power politics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 11:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 6:00 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 263 of 378 (846356)
01-05-2019 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
01-04-2019 11:04 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
So why did it not disappear again?
Without Constantine it would have done, it then became a game of power, money and politics. For most of its life the Christian church was controlled by a papal state and its army. Just about as far away from Jesus's message as a gun toting Pastor.
And now in those Christian countries that have created mature methods of self-governance the superstition is dying out because it can't stand on its own.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 11:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 5:52 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 264 of 378 (846358)
01-05-2019 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Tangle
01-05-2019 3:18 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Tangle, regarding the spread of Christianity writes:
Without Constantine it would have(been) done, it then became a game of power, money, and politics. For most of its life, the Christian church was controlled by a papal state and its army. Just about as far away from Jesus's message as a gun-toting Pastor.
And now in those Christian countries that have created mature methods of self-governance the superstition is dying out because it can't stand on its own.
If it really is a superstition, I will still cling to it until I die. Deep down, I honestly think it is true...but I also acknowledge that many counter-arguments are far more likely and reasonable. The whole story is incredible if true. And as far as what's true and what's not, I believe in Jesus Christ that He lives today. Critics may point out that this means nothing to them...what have I done for them lately? They have a point. I appreciate your input, Mr.Tangle. We aren't done arguing quite yet.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Tangle, posted 01-05-2019 3:18 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Tangle, posted 01-05-2019 6:09 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 265 of 378 (846359)
01-05-2019 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by AZPaul3
01-04-2019 11:33 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
tangle writes:
The problem is that without the supposed resurrection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without a trace.
Phat writes:
So why did it not disappear again?
AZPaul3 writes:
European power politics.
I did learn about that in school, rather than in church. The Popes and Kings took turns groveling to one another.
I actually read a good piece related to that earlier today...lemme find it.
Ten Most Popular Posts At Strange Notions
quote:
I’m a Muslim But Here’s Why I Admire
the Catholic Church
by Tamer Nashef~~
"I feel utmost respect for the work of Catholic monks and monasteries
in the Middle Ages. Their intellectual activities are one of the brightest
chapters in the history of the Catholic Church. The monasteries
played a positive role as centers of teaching, learning, and
scholarship and they can be aptly described as "proto-universities"
(Trombley 58). These monasteries taught grammar, logic, rhetoric,
and later mathematics, music, and astronomy, and they were "among
the most important libraries in the history of Western thought
because they copied, transcribed, and stored valuable texts (58).
While the Catholic Church is persistently accused of destroying
classical or Greco-Roman culture, the fact is that the monasteries
should be credited for "the careful preservation of the works of the
classical world and of the Church Fathers, both of which are central
to Western civilization" ...
The rest of the link is an informative opinion by a secular Muslim.
Thus it appears that the reason that Christianity persisted as a belief and was adopted by so many should not imply that belief clashed with secular wisdom and learning. Indeed belief allowed the monks to also learn other things besides the scriptures.
The Catholic view of a rationally ordered universe shot through with
purpose and of man as a reasonable creature capable of predicting
nature’s operations encouraged medieval Europeans to engage in
scientific activities and paved the way for the Scientific Revolution.
Reason. Faith. Dialogue.
It is also noteworthy that this mechanistic view of the universe leaves
little room for miracles. In contrast to the skewed belief that
Catholicism is riddled with nothing but superstitious beliefs and myths
completely detached from reality, here we have Catholic philosophers
who seem to believe that miracles are not a norm or a regular
occurrence, but a departure from the fixed laws of nature.Miracles do
happen, but only against the backdrop of regularity and order. For
example, Adelard of Bath charged that "we must listen to the very
limits of human knowledge and only when this utterly breaks down
should we refer things to God" (87). On the interpretation of Scripture,
Andrew of St. Victor argued that the interpreter "should realize this: in
expounding Scripture, when the event described admits of no
naturalistic explanation, then and only then should we have recourse
to miracles" (Huff, Science and Metaphysics in the Three Religions
of the Book 189).
Comments?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by AZPaul3, posted 01-04-2019 11:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by AZPaul3, posted 01-05-2019 3:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 266 of 378 (846360)
01-05-2019 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Phat
01-05-2019 5:52 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
If it really is a superstition, I will still cling to it until I die.
I'm sure you will, you seem you need it. But as the generations pass the fundamental beliefs of people like ICANT and Faith will fade out - as they have in more progressive countries - and be replaced by secularism and variants of GDRs 'nice' liberal cuktural Christianity.
The whole story is incredible if true.
Incredible it is.
And as far as what's true and what's not, I believe in Jesus Christ that He lives today.
Obviously he doesn't. You can't even explain what that means.
We aren't done arguing quite yet.
For as long as you stick to your first statement we'll never be done.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 5:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 6:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 378 (846361)
01-05-2019 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Tangle
01-05-2019 6:09 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Note my last post.
Strange Notions writes:
On the interpretation of Scripture,
Andrew of St. Victor argued that the interpreter "should realize this: in
expounding Scripture, when the event described admits of no
naturalistic explanation, then and only then should we have recourse
to miracles"~ (Huff, Science and Metaphysics in the Three Religions
of the Book
...
Of course, you will argue that there is no reason to invoke "God" once the limits of naturalistic explanations have been reached...but it is you who insists that God by definition is limited to a character in a book. My belief tells me otherwise. Again, you will correct me and tell me that my imagination tells me otherwise. You will then comment "how can it be any other way?" At that point, I can't help you.
For as long as you stick to your first statement we'll never be done.
Hopefully, we will debate these things eternally rather than simply dying and dissolving into dust...ceasing to exist.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Tangle, posted 01-05-2019 6:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Tangle, posted 01-05-2019 8:18 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 268 of 378 (846367)
01-05-2019 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
01-05-2019 6:16 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
Of course, you will argue that there is no reason to invoke "God" once the limits of naturalistic explanations have been reached...
Then why say it? Obviously invoking god(s) everytime we don't understand something is just plain dumb.
but it is you who insists that God by definition is limited to a character in a book.
Sigh. No Phat that is not what I say. I say all that the knowledge of *your* god is in *your* book. Others have different books and different gods.
Hopefully, we will debate these things eternally rather than simply dying and dissolving into dust...ceasing to exist.
Luckily you won't be disappointed either way.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 6:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:18 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 269 of 378 (846368)
01-05-2019 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Phat
01-04-2019 6:30 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why would HE need to repent and repudiate His old lifestyle?
He did it for us.
That doesn't make any sense. What do we learn if He does it for us? And why does He have to do anything anyway? Why couldn't God just forgive us?
Phat writes:
Not that we now get a free pass but so that we are now able to do it...He had to do it first.
Why did He "have" to do it first? Why did He "have" to do it alt all?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 6:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 270 of 378 (846369)
01-05-2019 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by GDR
01-04-2019 9:55 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
The resurrection is recorded as historical.
Where? Outside the Bible?
GDR writes:
The resurrection requires that the laws of science as we currently know them have to be suspended. Science cannot be used to repudiate or confirm resurrection.
The same can be said for the Flood.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by GDR, posted 01-04-2019 9:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 3:28 PM ringo has replied

  
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