|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ive heard that same point rxpressed by many Christians. Its even scriptural. My argument is based on ringos argument that the message itself is valid....im simply explaining how a metaphorical resurrection would still have value.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: My argument is based on ringos argument that the message itself is valid Of course the message is valid, it's universal and derivative!
....im simply explaining how a metaphorical resurrection would still have value. Sure it would have the same value as all the others. The problem is that without the supposed resurection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without trace.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Granted I would have problems giving everything up and having 100% trust. (snip) I argue that humans are incapable of being Christlike on our own due to original sin and selfish natures. Thus the resurrection made possible a way, but I myself am unable to follow the example. "made possible a way" for what? A way to gain the reward without having to perform the tasks of serving the poor, comforting the afflicted, turning the other cheek? Are you suggesting the resurrection is a cosmic cheat code for the penurious and the lazy?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: He did it for us. Not that we now get a free pass but so that we are now able to do it...He had to do it first. In the context of Jesus, that doesn't make any sense. Why would HE need to repent and repudiate His old lifestyle? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
|
Sorry. I didn’t have any time to devote to EvC the last couple of days. I thought that I’d just reply to these posts.
ringo writes: Of course there is no scientific evidence as both of us well know. There is no scientific evidence for the vast majority of historical events except for the written evidence. Certainly some historical events are more fully documented than others. Nope. Nobody has suggested that science is immutable. As soon as you can produce scientific evidence that resurrection is possible, we can start to examine the evidence for resurrection of Jesus. Until then, resurrection is just as impossible as walking across the Pacific Ocean or flapping your arms to the moon.The resurrection is recorded as historical. The resurrection requires that the laws of science as we currently know them have to be suspended. Science cannot be used to repudiate or confirm resurrection. It does require faith that the Gospel accounts are essentially accurate. Phat writes: Resurrection can be symbolic.Phat writes: Stop thinking of the resurrection as a necessary objective fact and start looking at it as a metaphorical ideal.ringo writes: Tell it to GDR.Tangle writes:
Resurrection certainly works as a metaphor for all sorts of things. It works in our lives for anything from a spiritual awakening to overcoming an addiction. However, I agree with Tangle that without the resurrection being historical Christianity is a false religion. It is at best a positive social model, that is assuming that one focuses on the love thy neighbour part. However, that is simply cultural Christianity, although IMHO, it is actually closer to secular humanism. But you've changed the point, which was that if the resurrection is not historical, then Christianity fails as a hypothesis.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: So why did it not disappear again? The problem is that without the supposed resurrection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without a trace.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
tangle writes: The problem is that without the supposed resurrection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without a trace.Phat writes: So why did it not disappear again? European power politics.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: So why did it not disappear again? Without Constantine it would have done, it then became a game of power, money and politics. For most of its life the Christian church was controlled by a papal state and its army. Just about as far away from Jesus's message as a gun toting Pastor. And now in those Christian countries that have created mature methods of self-governance the superstition is dying out because it can't stand on its own. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle, regarding the spread of Christianity writes: If it really is a superstition, I will still cling to it until I die. Deep down, I honestly think it is true...but I also acknowledge that many counter-arguments are far more likely and reasonable. The whole story is incredible if true. And as far as what's true and what's not, I believe in Jesus Christ that He lives today. Critics may point out that this means nothing to them...what have I done for them lately? They have a point. I appreciate your input, Mr.Tangle. We aren't done arguing quite yet. Without Constantine it would have(been) done, it then became a game of power, money, and politics. For most of its life, the Christian church was controlled by a papal state and its army. Just about as far away from Jesus's message as a gun-toting Pastor. And now in those Christian countries that have created mature methods of self-governance the superstition is dying out because it can't stand on its own.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
tangle writes: The problem is that without the supposed resurrection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without a trace.Phat writes:
So why did it not disappear again?AZPaul3 writes: I did learn about that in school, rather than in church. The Popes and Kings took turns groveling to one another. European power politics. I actually read a good piece related to that earlier today...lemme find it.
Ten Most Popular Posts At Strange Notions quote:The rest of the link is an informative opinion by a secular Muslim. Thus it appears that the reason that Christianity persisted as a belief and was adopted by so many should not imply that belief clashed with secular wisdom and learning. Indeed belief allowed the monks to also learn other things besides the scriptures.
The Catholic view of a rationally ordered universe shot through with Comments?purpose and of man as a reasonable creature capable of predicting nature’s operations encouraged medieval Europeans to engage in scientific activities and paved the way for the Scientific Revolution. Reason. Faith. Dialogue. It is also noteworthy that this mechanistic view of the universe leaveslittle room for miracles. In contrast to the skewed belief that Catholicism is riddled with nothing but superstitious beliefs and myths completely detached from reality, here we have Catholic philosophers who seem to believe that miracles are not a norm or a regular occurrence, but a departure from the fixed laws of nature.Miracles do happen, but only against the backdrop of regularity and order. For example, Adelard of Bath charged that "we must listen to the very limits of human knowledge and only when this utterly breaks down should we refer things to God" (87). On the interpretation of Scripture, Andrew of St. Victor argued that the interpreter "should realize this: in expounding Scripture, when the event described admits of no naturalistic explanation, then and only then should we have recourse to miracles" (Huff, Science and Metaphysics in the Three Religions of the Book 189). Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
|
Phat writes: If it really is a superstition, I will still cling to it until I die. I'm sure you will, you seem you need it. But as the generations pass the fundamental beliefs of people like ICANT and Faith will fade out - as they have in more progressive countries - and be replaced by secularism and variants of GDRs 'nice' liberal cuktural Christianity.
The whole story is incredible if true. Incredible it is.
And as far as what's true and what's not, I believe in Jesus Christ that He lives today. Obviously he doesn't. You can't even explain what that means.
We aren't done arguing quite yet. For as long as you stick to your first statement we'll never be done.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Note my last post.
Strange Notions writes:
Of course, you will argue that there is no reason to invoke "God" once the limits of naturalistic explanations have been reached...but it is you who insists that God by definition is limited to a character in a book. My belief tells me otherwise. Again, you will correct me and tell me that my imagination tells me otherwise. You will then comment "how can it be any other way?" At that point, I can't help you. On the interpretation of Scripture,Andrew of St. Victor argued that the interpreter "should realize this: in expounding Scripture, when the event described admits of no naturalistic explanation, then and only then should we have recourse to miracles"~ (Huff, Science and Metaphysics in the Three Religions of the Book ... For as long as you stick to your first statement we'll never be done. Hopefully, we will debate these things eternally rather than simply dying and dissolving into dust...ceasing to exist. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
|
Phat writes: Of course, you will argue that there is no reason to invoke "God" once the limits of naturalistic explanations have been reached... Then why say it? Obviously invoking god(s) everytime we don't understand something is just plain dumb.
but it is you who insists that God by definition is limited to a character in a book. Sigh. No Phat that is not what I say. I say all that the knowledge of *your* god is in *your* book. Others have different books and different gods.
Hopefully, we will debate these things eternally rather than simply dying and dissolving into dust...ceasing to exist. Luckily you won't be disappointed either way.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That doesn't make any sense. What do we learn if He does it for us? And why does He have to do anything anyway? Why couldn't God just forgive us?
ringo writes:
He did it for us. Why would HE need to repent and repudiate His old lifestyle? Phat writes:
Why did He "have" to do it first? Why did He "have" to do it alt all? Not that we now get a free pass but so that we are now able to do it...He had to do it first.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
GDR writes:
Where? Outside the Bible?
The resurrection is recorded as historical. GDR writes:
The same can be said for the Flood. The resurrection requires that the laws of science as we currently know them have to be suspended. Science cannot be used to repudiate or confirm resurrection.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024