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Author Topic:   Creation
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1368 of 1482 (845166)
12-12-2018 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1360 by Pressie
12-11-2018 7:08 AM


Re: Creation
Pressie and these guys are rather flippant towards you! Granted you don't get much respect here. I think that what he means, however, is that science is a tool used to determine certain truths relative to known scientific principles.
I don't think that they imply that science can give us an ultimate truth as to where we came from nor where we are headed as a species in the vast universe. They will attempt to use science to determine how the universe originated. It seems that they are unimpressed with believing that the Bible has answers for everything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1360 by Pressie, posted 12-11-2018 7:08 AM Pressie has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1369 of 1482 (845167)
12-12-2018 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1367 by ringo
12-12-2018 3:53 PM


Re: Creation
ringo writes:
1. A "search" can use any means, such as prayer, meditation, etc. Science uses a specific method.
2. A "search" often implies a process that ends when the destination is reached. Science is an ongoing process with no ultimate destination.
3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. What science finds can always be improved/amended.
One could argue that our personal belief could also be improved/amended. Even if I believed something for fifty years does not mean that I cannot be taught something new. Perhaps at one time, I thought God was fiction. Perhaps tomorrow I may find out diffferent. Who knows?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by ringo, posted 12-12-2018 3:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1372 by ringo, posted 12-13-2018 10:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1374 of 1482 (845240)
12-13-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1373 by ringo
12-13-2018 10:46 AM


Re: Creation
ringo writes:
In science, truth is not the goal. If something is "true" - i.e. if it is supported by evidence - it can be used for further study. For example, it is true that radioactive decay rates do not change; that truth can be used as an "assumption" to accurately measure ages.
So are you saying that the goal is simply further study? How is that different than attempting to find the truth?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by ringo, posted 12-13-2018 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1376 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 10:35 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1380 of 1482 (845391)
12-15-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1379 by ringo
12-15-2018 11:24 AM


Re: Creation
Ringo, to ICANT writes:
But you claimed that there is such a thing as absolute truth. To reach absolute truth, you'd need to have ALL of the facts, not just some facts. How can you know when you have all of the facts?
Of course, you can't know. You can believe that all of the facts exist, even though you do not yet know them. And who says we have to "reach" absolute truth? Perhaps absolute truth reaches us. Of course, as I have said before, you may stand at the altar forever, ring in hand, awaiting evidence. You won't make a move until all of the facts are in. Yet that day may not come soon. Are you satisfied to simply wait?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1379 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 11:24 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1381 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 11:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1395 of 1482 (845484)
12-16-2018 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1392 by Tanypteryx
12-15-2018 7:14 PM


Re: Creation
Tanypteryx, replying to ICANT writes:
Absolute truth is religious mumbo-jumbo, absolute truth is not part of the scientific method, absolute truth has never been part of the scientific method, and absolute truth will never be part of the scientific method.
You guys! Here is how I see this argument: Once upon a time, a wayward son left the nest. He went to college and studied hard, learning the newest information about science and about making an impact on the world around him. His "Dad" was a religious man who had gotten saved years before and who lived his life on one principle: Genesis 1:1.
Gen 1:1 writes:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The dad was rather sheltered from the latest educational insights and updates on science, though he did attempt to study it from time to time. The son and his classmates kinda mocked the old man for even attempting to understand science or the scientific method. Deep down, the Dad was a bit of a frustrated scientist himself...he wondered what he could have done with Genesis 1 plus an education. His whole motive and heart were to convince the son and his classmates that there was only one important absolute truth: Genesis 1. The son responded:
Absolute truth is religious mumbo-jumbo, absolute truth is not part of the scientific method, absolute truth has never been part of the scientific method, and absolute truth will never be part of the scientific method.
The son may not have realized that his Dad was only saying that no matter what he learned from science, including the very technology that helped him battle cancer, one absolute truth remained. The son disagreed.
(Dad, If you think you can convince science and scientists to change how they do science and report the results, don't hold your breath.
The Father really did respect the science that his son and friends were learning, but he felt the need to remind them as often as possible that Genesis 1 was a necessary absolute truth, no matter how much other knowledge they learned. The son was thankful that he was alive and breathing, but he attributed that to science and human achievement.
Get it? Keep studying, son.
All that "Dad" means is that absolute truth can be a part of the faith of the scientist without interfering with his method of study.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1392 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-15-2018 7:14 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1396 of 1482 (845486)
12-16-2018 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1394 by ringo
12-16-2018 1:29 PM


Obtuse vs Illiterate. Dad and Son spar
and then we have the other son in Canada...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1394 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1397 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:56 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1398 of 1482 (845491)
12-16-2018 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1397 by ringo
12-16-2018 1:56 PM


Re: Obtuse vs Illiterate. Dad and Son spar
Tanypteryx has a valid point in regards to science. My analogy was meant to show what I believe the motive is for ICANT even arguing. His aim is not to reinvent science. His aim is to convince you that God is the one exception to the rule that there is no absolute truth. You, of course, will continue to argue.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1397 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1400 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 2:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1399 of 1482 (845493)
12-16-2018 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1394 by ringo
12-16-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Creation
Your basic argument:
unless there is evidence pointing to a cause-effect relationship between prayer and _______, we can not conclude that prayer is effective.
Which extrapolates into: "Unless there is evidence pointing to a cause-effect relationship between GOD and_________, we cannot conclude that God exists or is effective." You will never convince the old man of that!
God cannot be proven using science.
God is a matter of Faith.
Whether God exists regardless of our faith may be proven at some point in the future. Or we may die never knowing. jar thinks we may know after we die.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1394 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1401 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 2:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1402 of 1482 (845501)
12-16-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1401 by ringo
12-16-2018 2:08 PM


Re: Creation
ringo writes:
I wouldn't waste a word trying to convince him that water is wet.
Is the fact that water is wet an absolute truth?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1401 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 2:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1403 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 2:28 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1404 of 1482 (845516)
12-16-2018 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1403 by ringo
12-16-2018 2:28 PM


Re: Creation
No. I am concurring that God is the only necessary absolute truth. All else is consensus.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1403 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 2:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1405 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 3:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1414 of 1482 (845552)
12-17-2018 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1405 by ringo
12-16-2018 3:11 PM


Re: Creation
  • It prevents the fear of our species becoming orphans in a vast indifferent universe.
    It gives us the security of a benign and loving leader who knows the territory...after all, the foot soldiers know the territory yet are helpless o change the war, whereas the one who left the Pentagon and is on the front line with them can do both.\
    You will *sigh* as always argue that there is no evidence of such a God or leader being omnipresent, which gets us back to the necessity of belief---for some. Others of you have your own belief. or none at all.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1405 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 3:11 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1418 by ringo, posted 12-17-2018 11:13 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1415 of 1482 (845553)
    12-17-2018 10:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 1412 by AZPaul3
    12-17-2018 1:59 AM


    Re: Creation
    Perhaps data brings you comfort. Does logic, reason, and reality seem comfortable? Perhaps in ICANTs experience, being freely able to pray and meditate on the Bible gives him comfort. We are a product of our experiences.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1412 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2018 1:59 AM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1421 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2018 3:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1416 of 1482 (845554)
    12-17-2018 10:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 1411 by ICANT
    12-16-2018 10:10 PM


    Re: Creation
    ICANT writes:
    The universe is expanding, according to Hubble and the Bible agrees with him as God stretched it out.
    I have yet to find the reason science gives for that expansion. What is the cause of it starting to expand?
    Inflation is a fantasy according to Penrose who is a giant of physics.
    So inflation did not start the expansion. If it did what caused inflation to begin?
    Good point, though some will argue that there was no time in the Beginning. They eliminate God as a factor in the equation because they cannot prove Him to their satisfaction. A case can be made biblically that belief leads to proof. Scientifically, this cannot be grasped and in fact is either in the scientist or not. Regardless, belief should not affect scientific results.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1411 by ICANT, posted 12-16-2018 10:10 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1419 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2018 12:31 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 1422 by ICANT, posted 12-17-2018 8:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1428 of 1482 (845649)
    12-18-2018 12:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 1427 by ICANT
    12-18-2018 11:52 AM


    Re: Creation
    I fixed your link to the video. It was ibn post 801 rather than 773.
    ICANT, to AZ writes:
    So where is any evidence that I am supposed to be able to look at?
    Your critics will use the same argument in regards to God. They can't see Him and won't accept the "evidence" of Romans 1:18. I can see your argument, however. I don't think either side will ever settle this one.
    One side demands objectively verifiable evidence. The other side maintains that it should then be quid pro quo since the "maths break down" in that regard.
    Maybe it would be better if you quit trying to reason with them and simply prayed for them instead. Romans 1:18 seems as if it is your only answer.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1427 by ICANT, posted 12-18-2018 11:52 AM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1429 by ringo, posted 12-18-2018 12:14 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 1431 by ICANT, posted 12-19-2018 11:39 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1448 of 1482 (845993)
    12-25-2018 6:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 1439 by Tangle
    12-21-2018 4:44 PM


    Ancient Wisdom & Common Sense
    First off, Merry Christmas Mr.Tangle. I hope that you and yours have a good time with family and friends and that you all enjoy a healthy New Year.
    Now on to our ongoing discussions.....
    Tangle, to ICANT writes:
    But in fact, there's absolutely nothing in the bible that couldn't have been written by someone a few thousand years ago. Nothing.
    Not that they could even write of course.
    I would argue that not everyone was intelligent nor was everyone so simple minded just because they couldn't write nor read. ICANT may argue that some of them had encounters with God and wrote about it or preserved it through oral tradition later written down. I would argue that some ancient wisdom is better than the established medical wisdom of today. One such example is fasting. It has done more to lower my blood sugars, reduce swelling in my legs (edema) and lower my A1C than any number of medications prescribed for me in the previous ten years.
    I am very blessed to have a Medical Doctor who is a low carb proponent, knowledgeable about diet and endocrinology, and not sold out to the pharmaceutical industry. He is helping me take back control of my health and my life. He still has me on some medications of course, but we have cut out some of them and are working to eliminate all but the absolutely necessary ones for my condition and my diabetic issues. The ancients had no medicines of course except perhaps willow bark and a few herbs here and there...but they did know about fasting. Even animals use it naturally when they are ill or hurt. Moses may not have known the science behind his simple observations, but my point is that common sense is not universally common. The same ones who wrote the initial ideas expressed in the book are the ones in their own society capable and disciplined enough to grasp the truths. ICANT is arguing that it was science...and I can see your argument that he is attempting to use that argument to advance his beliefs and perhaps his book. People should be taught all sides of an issue. My experience shows that ancient "wisdom" was at times wiser than the educated medical and scientific establishment of today...who is driven by ulterior motives, in the case of pharmaceuticals at least.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1439 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2018 4:44 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1449 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2018 7:08 AM Phat has replied
     Message 1452 by ICANT, posted 12-26-2018 12:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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