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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 91 of 378 (845140)
12-12-2018 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
12-12-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Faith writes:
Only a morally confused person totally ignorant of truth and reality would reduce justice to murder.
In what way is the mass murder of people whose only 'sin' is to be born into a different religion to yourself justice?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 12-12-2018 11:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 12-13-2018 7:59 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 92 of 378 (845149)
12-12-2018 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
12-12-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Faith writes:
Only a morally confused person totally ignorant of truth and reality would reduce justice to murder.
That's what people are telling you: the murders ordered by God in the Old Testament were not justice. Only a morally confused person would say they were. And only a morally confused God would order murder in the name of justice.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 12-12-2018 11:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 93 of 378 (845193)
12-13-2018 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
12-12-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Only a morally confused person totally ignorant of truth and reality would reduce justice to murder.
As a bit of an aside, but to really drill down into this concept you have of justice, on what basis could it be considered justice to put a sword through a baby ? What could a baby have done that is subject to any concept of justice ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 12-12-2018 11:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 12-13-2018 7:53 PM vimesey has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 378 (845218)
12-13-2018 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
12-12-2018 11:32 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Tangle, addressing Faith writes:
Only a religious fundamentalist can condone the mass murder of people who believe in something different to themselves.
We are getting a bit off topic, but what about the United States and the B-52 Bomber strikes in the first Iraq War? Those airstrikes likely qualify as Mass Murder. Yet the United States is thankfully not a Theocracy. So what gives?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 11:32 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 2:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 378 (845220)
12-13-2018 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
12-12-2018 11:32 AM


All The News That Is Fit To Print
Tangle addressing Faith writes:
Everything in your book is god dealing with ancient people, though it's not history.
You cant have it both ways. Everything in the book, according to a skeptic, is ancient scribes writing about God dealing with the people of that time. If God exists and is involved at all, the accounts of His commands to the people were written down by the scribes of those same people. Not to mention that only the scribes of the victorious people had any input into the written record. It would be much the same in today's world. US Armed forces go to Iraq. Stated objective: Get Iraq out of Kuwait. Scribes=Associated Press.
Some see the God of radical Islam similar to a monster under the bed.
ringo writes:
We can choose opposing the monster under the bed as our destiny... or... we can see whether the monster under the bed actually has any effect on our lives - and if not, we can ignore it. Just as we can ignore the Dad in the sky.
George W.Bush writes:
"Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions I stand on principle. And the principles are derived from who I am. I believe we ought to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. That's manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's one part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged how I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me. And religion is a part of me."
--Third Presidential Debate, Tempe, AZ, October 13, 2004
On Religion's Role in Politics
"I wouldn't pick a judge who said that the Pledge of Allegiance couldn't be said in a school because it had the words 'under God'' in it. I think that's an example of a judge allowing personal opinion to enter into the decision-making process, as opposed to strict interpretation of the Constitution."
--Second Presidential Debate, St. Louis, October 8, 2004
"I fully understand it's important to maintain the separation of church and state. We don't want the state to become the church, nor do we want the church to become the state.
"I believe that God wants me to be president."
--According to Richard Land, as quoted in ""Understanding the President and his God"
"We need common-sense judges who understand our rights were derived from God,"
--As quoted in ""Understanding the President and his God"
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 11:32 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 2:18 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 11:04 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 96 of 378 (845223)
12-13-2018 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
12-13-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:
We are getting a bit off topic, but what about the United States and the B-52 Bomber strikes in the first Iraq War? Those airstrikes likely qualify as Mass Murder. Yet the United States is thankfully not a Theocracy. So what gives?
There several answers to that, the first being that what they did was evil and wrong.
That aside, the equivalent action would have been to wipe the Iraqis off the face of the earth women and children too and only because they're not Christian. How does that feel?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 1:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 2:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 97 of 378 (845224)
12-13-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
12-13-2018 1:57 PM


Re: All The News That Is Fit To Print
Phat writes:
You cant have it both ways. Everything in the book, according to a skeptic, is ancient scribes writing about God dealing with the people of that time.
As far as I'm aware everyone agrees that the bible was written by people writing about god at that time.
If God exists and is involved at all, the accounts of His commands to the people were written down by the scribes of those same people. Not to mention that only the scribes of the victorious people had any input into the written record.
Yes, and?
It would be much the same in today's world. US Armed forces go to Iraq. Stated objective: Get Iraq out of Kuwait. Scribes=Associated Press.
No it wouldn't. In todays world we have the world's press and the international court of human rights, NATO and a myriad of other global bodies watching and recording.
Some see the God of radical Islam similar to a monster under the bed.
If you mean it's totally imaginary, I agree.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 1:57 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 378 (845226)
12-13-2018 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Tangle
12-13-2018 2:10 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Tangle writes:
That aside, the equivalent action would have been to wipe the Iraqis off the face of the earth women and children too and only because they're not Christian. How does that feel?
Nobody wants to be on the losing side.
But getting back to a God of Open Theism, such a God would allow His "One Nation Under God" to do exactly what it wanted to do based on the powers which its people gave to their leaders. Rightly or wrongly, Britain and the US perceived Iraq taking our Kuwait oil source away from us was a threat to our way of life. Israel also had threats to its way of life. Killing the children off as well prevented them from becoming sworn fighters against Israel later on as they grew up. Whether God is mentioned in the equation or not, the behavior of the people is the same. A God of Open Theism would allow that. Faiths God would be angry at His people if they disobeyed a direct order.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 2:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 2:45 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 99 of 378 (845230)
12-13-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
12-13-2018 2:31 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:
Nobody wants to be on the losing side.
That's an understatement. At least in 'humane' warfare there IS a losing side. In god's warfare he approves of and promotes mass annihilation and genocide.
But getting back to a God of Open Theism, such a God would allow His "One Nation Under God" to do exactly what it wanted to do based on the powers which its people gave to their leaders.
Right, almost as if he didn't exist you mean?
Killing the children off as well prevented them from becoming sworn fighters against Israel later on as they grew up.
Let's be clear here, you think this is ok?
Whether God is mentioned in the equation or not, the behavior of the people is the same. A God of Open Theism would allow that.
Yeh, like I say, almost as if he didn't exist isn't it?
Faiths God would be angry at His people if they disobeyed a direct order.
The tricky bit is that Faith's god is your god. She just reads the words, you re-interpret the words to make them not mean what they say. It's difficult for you because the words are explicit, they don't lend themselves to 'interpretation' do they?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 2:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 3:37 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 378 (845234)
12-13-2018 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Tangle
12-13-2018 2:45 PM


Absence Of Evidence On The Head Of A Pin
Tangle writes:
The tricky bit is that Faith's god is your god. She just reads the words, you re-interpret the words to make them not mean what they say. It's difficult for you because the words are explicit, they don't lend themselves to 'interpretation' do they?
I agree with jars basic definition, except that I omit the word If
(If) God exists God exists regardless of any evidence, lack of evidence, theory,or speculation regarding His existence. If God does not exist, God does not exist no matter what claims are made about an inerrant Bible, the behavior of believers, or any evidence to the contrary.
I happen to believe that God does exist, that He exists through the character of Jesus Christ and that He will always exist. So at that point, you and I disagree. Jar simply brought up the point that God may exist and that no evidence can refute that fact. To be fair, jar also brought up the belief that God may not exist. You as an atheist don't even give it all much thought. The whole angels on a pin sort of thing.
In the context of the Great Debate, ICANT and I are in fact talking about the same God. We are discussing the belief and the philosophy. You are free to counter that with any philosophy that you have...even if you claim it to be factual and evident. That's why we all have these debates.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 2:45 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 4:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 101 of 378 (845238)
12-13-2018 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
12-13-2018 3:37 PM


Re: Absence Of Evidence On The Head Of A Pin
Phat writes:
If) God exists God exists regardless of any evidence, lack of evidence, theory,or speculation regarding His existence. If God does not exist, God does not exist no matter what claims are made about an inerrant Bible, the behavior of believers, or any evidence to the contrary.
I fail to see why you find that impressive - it's a statement of the blindingly obvious that moves no-one nowhere.
I happen to believe that God does exist,
Yeh, but you're not a Deist, you're a Christian so you are required to believe what is said in the bible. But the bible says stuff you absolutely don't believe is right and moral - I hope.
Jar simply brought up the point that God may exist and that no evidence can refute that fact.
Sure, but why is that not really obvious?
To be fair, jar also brought up the belief that God may not exist. You as an atheist don't even give it all much thought. The whole angels on a pin sort of thing.
Yup. But god existing and not existing is the same thing. No one knows nor can know.
In the context of the Great Debate, ICANT and I are in fact talking about the same God. We are discussing the belief and the philosophy. You are free to counter that with any philosophy that you have...even if you claim it to be factual and evident. That's why we all have these debates.
That's fine but if all you're going to do is sit at the feet of the master, you're wasting your nervous energy.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 3:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 4:13 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 378 (845239)
12-13-2018 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tangle
12-13-2018 4:09 PM


Re: Absence Of Evidence On The Head Of A Pin
Tangle writes:
if all you're going to do is sit at the feet of the master, you're wasting your nervous energy.
IF God existed, would you bother sitting at His feet or would you attempt to mess with His head?
As for wasting time, that's up to the discretion of the individual. Today happens to be my day off, so I enjoy "wasting time" on the computer. What do you do on your day off? You seem to be here at the forum a lot as well.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 4:09 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 4:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 103 of 378 (845243)
12-13-2018 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
12-13-2018 4:13 PM


Re: Absence Of Evidence On The Head Of A Pin
Phat writes:
IF God existed, would you bother sitting at His feet
So long as he's not that nightmare of a god in your book, sure. A real god with real moral values would be a pretty cool dude.
or would you attempt to mess with His head?
If that was possible he's no god.
As for wasting time, that's up to the discretion of the individual. Today happens to be my day off, so I enjoy "wasting time" on the computer. What do you do on your day off? You seem to be here at the forum a lot as well.
For me it's a trivial hobby, for you it seems more like life, death and your soul. I worry for you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 4:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 104 of 378 (845281)
12-13-2018 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by vimesey
12-13-2018 7:19 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
The Babylonians smashed the heads of the babies of the Israelis; they were paying them back on their own,not ordered by God. As for whatever God Himself ordered that included all members of any tribe, it's about spiritual contamination even though we may not understand any of that these days. Our standards of justice today don't include such things. I could guess that it could have something to do with demonic influence but I don't know either and I'm quite sure I couldn't convince anyone here about that sort of thing anyway. Nevertheless I do believe we are currently under assault by hordes of demons because of our moral failures over the last few decades. Both in and outside of the churches. But our methods today are spiritual and not against human beings anyway. I see the churches as seriously at fault for not opposing all the doctrinal errors that have grown up in this time and are no doubt the real reason for the deterioration of the culture.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2018 7:19 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by vimesey, posted 12-14-2018 12:58 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 105 of 378 (845282)
12-13-2018 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
12-12-2018 1:13 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
In what way is the mass murder of people whose only 'sin' is to be born into a different religion to yourself justice?
I thought we were talking about what God did in the times of ancient Israel. In that context His aim was to keep His people separate from the idolatrous demon-worshiping influences of the neighboring tribes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 1:13 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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