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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 76 of 378 (845022)
12-10-2018 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
12-10-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Who Is In Charge?
Phat writes:
Im not fully convinced that it is/was fiction. I've heard arguments from both sides.
So you think it's ok to execute those with a different belief to your own? (As commanded by your God)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 12:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 12:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 378 (845024)
12-10-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tangle
12-10-2018 12:15 PM


Re: Who Is In Charge?
The problem here is that you are reading the book and telling me what my God must do and what I must believe. Your interpretation, however, is not what I must believe.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 12:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 12:25 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 78 of 378 (845026)
12-10-2018 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-10-2018 12:17 PM


Re: Who Is In Charge?
Phat writes:
The problem here is that you are reading the book and telling me what my God must do and what I must believe. Your interpretation, however, is not what I must believe.
I understand what you must believe, that's not in doubt. The problem is that what you must believe is not what's written in plain language - not an interpretaion, in simple, understandable terms - in your book. And the book is all you've got.
Your book commands you to kill heretics, why aren't you doing that?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 12:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 3:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 378 (845031)
12-10-2018 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
12-10-2018 12:25 PM


Re: Who Is In Charge?
Essentially I agree with GDR in that the message for Christians today is not found in the commands to the Jewish people of Israel in the Old Testament. It is found through Jesus Christ.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 12:25 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 5:16 PM Phat has replied
 Message 81 by GDR, posted 12-10-2018 9:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 80 of 378 (845038)
12-10-2018 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
12-10-2018 3:49 PM


Re: Who Is In Charge?
Phat writes:
Essentially I agree with GDR in that the message for Christians today is not found in the commands to the Jewish people of Israel in the Old Testament. It is found through Jesus Christ.
That's odd aren't you quoting Babel as evidence of something or other in another thread?
I any case, isn't the bible the word of God anymore? Maybe just written by some scribes that can be dismissed out of hand?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 3:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 5:06 AM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 81 of 378 (845041)
12-10-2018 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
12-10-2018 3:49 PM


Re: Who Is In Charge?
Phat writes:
Essentially I agree with GDR in that the message for Christians today is not found in the commands to the Jewish people of Israel in the Old Testament. It is found through Jesus Christ.
First off apologies to those like Percy that I just haven't had time lately to spend on this. I just wanted to comment on this.
Yes, I agree that the life lessons for Christians today is found in the message that we receive from Jesus in the Gospels, as well as in the exegesis done by the writers of the Epistles.
I think it is important to remember though, that Jesus' self understanding was gained through His knowledge and understanding of the OT. If we want to understand how Jesus understood His relationship with the Father, the basis for His message of love of God and neighbour, and primarily the basis for His understanding of His vocation we need the OT.
The Bible is obviously not inerrant. It was written by people, and although they were inspired to record their histories, their understandings of God, and their hopes for their future with God, it does not mean that they got it right or wrong. It is open to human understanding as it is open to human error and false motives.
So, as I've said numerous times, if we want to understand just what it was that Jesus was about ,we need to OT, but if we want to understand God's Word, where to quote John, "The Word Became Flesh", we look through the life and message of Jesus.
Thanks so much for your time and wisdom on this forum both as admin and contributor.
Merry Christmas
GDR

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 3:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 378 (845047)
12-11-2018 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
12-10-2018 5:16 PM


Re: Who Is In Charge?
Tangle writes:
aren't you quoting Babel as evidence of something or other in another thread?
In any case, isn't the bible the word of God anymore? Maybe just written by some scribes that can be dismissed out of hand?
How do I explain? OK....a book of rules written by a computer would be easy to dismiss. A book written by a human, (or many humans) is the only book worth paying attention to in regards to belief, laws, and commandments. Even then, it can be easily ignored or dismissed as a fairy tale. You have done that. The odd thing, however, is that you read it like a legal document and insist that I believe and follow all of it. You miss the point. The point is that I am not following a book. I am following a character in the book. You start by quoting what GOD said to do. I would argue that it was not GOD actually talking. Many conservative Christians would disagree with my assessment. The point is, you won't win this argument by pinning me down to the legalities of what was written. First, you have to engage the character who speaks from the book. I will argue(though cannot prove) that the character is who initially inspired the scribes to write in the first place.
Romans 2:14-15--Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. 16This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.
The book without the character is useless.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 5:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2018 6:08 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 83 of 378 (845049)
12-11-2018 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
12-11-2018 5:06 AM


Re: Who Is In Charge?
Phat writes:
How do I explain?
You almost don't need to, I know how you will rationalise the contradiction between what the bible says you must do/believe and what you actually do/believe.
There are coping mechanisms
1. Distance the OT from the NT. This is necessary because the OT is very obviously violent mythology and portrays a god that only a few fundamentalists want to believe in. It also contains factual problems that prove it's man-made and error prone. Creation, flood, immutibility of species etc. In short, it's an embarrassment to modern thinking.
2. Latch on to the message of Jesus. Gentle Jesus meek and mild. This meshes better with modern life and unlike the OT contains viable moral values. Don't read the OT. Don't preach it in your church, just put it to one side and only refer to it where it confirms a useful NT text.
3. Pick and mix. The NT links to the OT. All that stuff about one god, heaven and hell, the commandments the prophecies that make Jesus more than just another guy. You have to keep all that stuff. You can believe that stuff but not the difficult stuff like murdering heretics. That stuff can be pushed to one side and forgotten about.
The point is, you won't win this argument by pinning me down to the legalities of what was written. First, you have to engage the character who speaks from the book. I will argue(though cannot prove) that the character is who initially inspired the scribes to write in the first place.
Legalities? It's a straightforward command to kill heretics. Ok I don't blame you for not wanting to accept it and act on it, but there are many who have and believed they were doing God's work. You've simply chosen not to believe that particular part of the book. Chosen not too. Others chose differently. Who's right?
Just like you choose not to give all you have to the poor - an instruction from the NT, from the most important character in your book that you say you are following. You're pick and mixing and it feels uncomfortable when it's pointed out because you then have to rationalise.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 5:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 7:50 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 378 (845052)
12-11-2018 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tangle
12-11-2018 6:08 AM


Re: Who Is In Charge?
Tangle writes:
It's a straightforward command to kill heretics. Ok I don't blame you for not wanting to accept it and act on it, but there are many who have and believed they were doing God's work. You've simply chosen not to believe that particular part of the book. Chosen not too. Others chose differently. Who's right?
Just like you choose not to give all you have to the poor - an instruction from the NT, from the most important character in your book that you say you are following. You're pick and mixing and it feels uncomfortable when it's pointed out because you then have to rationalize.
OK I get your point.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2018 6:08 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 378 (845074)
12-11-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Tangle
12-10-2018 3:40 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Biblical Christianity teaches its followers that there is only one god and that God is a jealous god and that God commands its followers to kill anyone of speaking of different Gods.
God commanded His Old Testament nation of Israel to do that. We are not the Old Testament theocracy of Israel and Christians do not apply those commands to ourselves. I'll not say never because you may be able to dig up a couple of crackpots or a sect that temporarily thought it was supposed to obey those commands, but as a general rule no, it's not Christian and Bible-believing Protestantism does not follow those commands.
Besides, you ought to be able to tell when you are reading about a historical event and not a direct command to the reader, or do you feel obligated to obey, say, commands reported to have been given by military leaders in some historical account of some historical war?
The only thing preventing religions enforcing their fundamentalist beliefs on others and dealing with heretics the way they are commanded is lack of access to physical worldly power. When zealots like yourself get their hands on that we see the results.
Oh blithering nonsense. The Protestant Reformation certainly wielded enough state power to do that if it were true since all the nations of northern Europe became Protestant, had Protestantism for their state religion, and Luther could have made himself the Protestant Pope and had an Inquisition to rival Rome's if he'd wanted to. But it didn't happen, did it? Because it's a complete violation of Biblical Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 3:40 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2018 3:21 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2018 5:19 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 86 of 378 (845078)
12-11-2018 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
12-11-2018 2:58 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Right thread -
The New England Puritans stopped persecuting Quakers because the King threatened to take over their Colony, unless they shipped their Quakers back to England for trial.
New England Historical Society
Then in 1662, the king sent a letter to Massachusetts ordering him to stop the Quaker persecution.
According to the king’s missive, Quakers accused of crimes were to be sent to England — unharmed — for trial.
That only slowly stopped persecution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 2:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 87 of 378 (845087)
12-11-2018 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
12-11-2018 2:58 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Faith writes:
God commanded His Old Testament nation of Israel to do that.
What a nice chap he is.
We are not the Old Testament theocracy of Israel and Christians do not apply those commands to ourselves.
Right. He's ok with other gods these days is he? To save time, are there other bits of the bible that it's ok to disobey?
I'll not say never because you may be able to dig up a couple of crackpots or a sect that temporarily thought it was supposed to obey those commands, but as a general rule no, it's not Christian and Bible-believing Protestantism does not follow those commands.
Protestants don't murder people because it's wrong, just like everyone else.
Besides, you ought to be able to tell when you are reading about a historical event and not a direct command to the reader, or do you feel obligated to obey, say, commands reported to have been given by military leaders in some historical account of some historical war?
Are you sure you want to take this line? Whatever happened to reading the bible literally?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 2:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 12-12-2018 9:36 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 378 (845102)
12-12-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tangle
12-11-2018 5:19 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
God commanded His Old Testament nation of Israel to do that.
What a nice chap he is.
Well, it is a kind and merciful act if you understand it, which of course you don't. That is, this world is ruled by Satan and his demonic hordes, or was until Jesus defeated them at the cross, and God entered history beginning with Abraham for the purpose of saving us from them, which in the case of ancient Israel meant eliminating their influence through their captive followers by strongly punishing them. All those punishments were also meant to be admonitions to us now in the sense that they show us God's heart toward the evildoers and foreshadow their final doom.
We are not the Old Testament theocracy of Israel and Christians do not apply those commands to ourselves.
Right. He's ok with other gods these days is he?
No, but they are defeated thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, though the trial and sentencing await Jesus' return; and the influence of Christ in the world has been very effective until the last few decades. Their influence is unfortunately increasing again despite their being defeated. However, God's people are not an earthly theocracy so our weapons now are entirely spiritual. We now understand that we are not in a war against human beings but against "the powers and principalities in high places" meaning the demons.
To save time, are there other bits of the bible that it's ok to disobey?
Everything that doesn't apply to us. Context, context.
I'll not say never because you may be able to dig up a couple of crackpots or a sect that temporarily thought it was supposed to obey those commands, but as a general rule no, it's not Christian and Bible-believing Protestantism does not follow those commands.
Protestants don't murder people because it's wrong, just like everyone else.
Weird, I thought you said fundamentalists would happily kill heretics if we had the power.
Besides, you ought to be able to tell when you are reading about a historical event and not a direct command to the reader, or do you feel obligated to obey, say, commands reported to have been given by military leaders in some historical account of some historical war?
Are you sure you want to take this line? Whatever happened to reading the bible literally?
Reading it "literally" really means reading it as it was written and meant to be read and we certainly do read it the way it was meant to be read. We don't read historical accounts of God's dealings with His ancient people as commands to ourselves, though we do read it all as education in the nature of God and His Law that runs this universe. You quoted God's instructions to Israel, clearly in the context of their culture at the time. They do not apply to us in that form.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2018 5:19 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 11:32 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 89 of 378 (845120)
12-12-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
12-12-2018 9:36 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Faith writes:
Well, it is a kind and merciful act if you understand it
Only a religious fundamentalist can condone the mass murder of people who believe in something different to themselves.
Weird, I thought you said fundamentalists would happily kill heretics if we had the power.
Absolutely they will, history is littered with them. Luckily not all protestants are fundamentalists.
Reading it "literally" really means reading it as it was written
Stop right there and I'll agree with you. Sadly you don't stop right there you add context. Here you go
We don't read historical accounts of God's dealings with His ancient people as commands to ourselves,
Everything in your book is god dealing with ancient people, though it's not history.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 12-12-2018 9:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 12-12-2018 11:36 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 1:40 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 1:57 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 378 (845122)
12-12-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
12-12-2018 11:32 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Only a morally confused person totally ignorant of truth and reality would reduce justice to murder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 11:32 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 1:13 PM Faith has replied
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 12-12-2018 2:26 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 93 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2018 7:19 AM Faith has replied

  
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