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Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Faith writes: I guess you have no idea whatever how bizarrely wrongheaded this notion is. Of course not. That's why I follow it. Feel free to explain why you think personal responsibility is bizarrely wrongheaded or anything else, though.If it's reasonable, I'll change my position to something better. Always looking to get better! Of course, if you can't explain it, or provide any reasonable critique... well... then it will seem like every other discussion with anyone holding fingers in their ears.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: My problem isnt with the source. This is more your problem. I will explain. Glover sums it up rather well when he states:
Riverrat just more or less bragged about how he doesn't get his ideas about God from the church, Phat says something similar about the Bible: he has his own version of subjectivism though he answers Riverrat that he isn't completely in line with what he'd said. GDR's views are unfolding more and more lately as a clearcut heresy of some sort, sort of reminiscent of Robert Schuller of Crystal Cathedral fame I think, though I'm not exactly sure how to label it. Now we've got Percy describing his own belief in God as something that's just in him, that he can't defend objectively, it's just there. And Stile just joined the lineup with a thread proposal about a totally subjective approach to believing in God or not believing according to what feels right or something like that. Who am I forgetting? All of these listed object to making the Bible the foundation of their belief, aggressively attacking it in some cases. Here God spent millennia inspiring His prophets to give us the truth about Himself and you all ignore it and tear it to shreds. What is the point in having any belief in God at all if you're going to ignore the only source of objective knowledge about Him? quote: Thus what your side is essentially saying is that the Bible is the beginning and ending of truth--period and that unless people return to this truth, all is lost. So first of all, what is a biblically informed mind? Does it mean that God Himself speaks to you through the Word and gives you infallible wisdom and truth? Seriously?The same so-called truth that leads you to make 30,000 posts arguing YEC without evidence, rejecting most evidence from a world of established scientists, and ranting out your "objective truth" like Isaiah hmself? Look around at your audience. They have not been swayed by anything you have said, but they have noted the character whom you are and have become. Hey, who am I to question God ? Maybe He sent you to challenge the evolutionists and fellow semi-Christians(as you see us) alike. Maybe. So what is the character of this God whom you worship?You would claim only that the Bible alone describes Gods character. Unlike me, you would not even attempt to describe this character whom allegedly gives you a biblically-informed mind...you would simply find His character within the scriptures in order to defend it. In fact, you would never even question what you believe or if your mind is not also deceived based on your belief that a biblically informed mind can never be wrong. I used to believe what Schaffer and Glover write about. In fact, my beliefs were more in line with yours..(despite you thinking I know nothing about true biblical teaching, I know the whole basic belief and argument in support of it) But I can't agree with the reasoning. Lets just take one point. Here God spent millennia inspiring His prophets to give us the truth about Himself and you all ignore it and tear it to shreds. What is the point in having any belief in God at all if you're going to ignore the only source of objective knowledge about Him? How is it that an omnipotent all-wise Creator of all seen and unseen limits Himself to depending on humans to state His case for Him? And then likely foreknows that humans will argue with each other on the interpretation of His "objective" knowledge? One difference between you and I is that you trust your sources without hesitation because you believe that they all have biblically informed minds. One reason why I dont trust you is because though I trust God, and largely (though not blindly) trust the Bible. I dont trust that only some humans are biblically informed. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: That's a lie, and all you've done is assert it. I answered your one puny false example. Give us some evidence for your false accusation. So now I'm confused. I gave you several instances of religions murdering heretics, you gave me some more. What is your complaint?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sorry if I've misread something but I don't want to review it all right now. What I remember is that you cited instances of murders of heretics by Islam and Roman Catholicism, plus a mention of some Puritans doing the same without giving any numbers, which I'm sure are minuscule and very short lived. That's all i remember from you, sorry if I missed something. I don't recall adding anything, just agreeing with the Islamic and Catholic examples.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thus what your side is essentially saying is that the Bible is the beginning and ending of truth--period ... Yes, that is it, the Bible is our only source of truth about God.
So first of all, what is a biblically informed mind? Pretty simple, Phat: it's a mind pretty well informed of what the Bible says, and I'd add also informed about how the best theologians down the centuries have interpreted it, so as to avoid the wild surmises people come up with on their own, which is in abundant evidence at EvC -- five totally different subjective ideas about God from the five people who happened to describe their views recently. And of course a biblicall informed mind also means a mind that believes what the Bible says as carefully learned through many teachers.
Does it mean that God Himself speaks to you through the Word and gives you infallible wisdom and truth? Seriously? It means that it contains God's infallible wisdom and truth and we do well to try to learn it. And yes believers do often experience God's speaking to us through it, but I don't want to emphasize that in this context because the way you put it is a bit odd or at least I'm not sure what you mean.
The same so-called truth that leads you to make 30,000 posts arguing YEC without evidence, rejecting most evidence from a world of established scientists, and ranting out your "objective truth" like Isaiah hmself? Look around at your audience. They have not been swayed by anything you have said, but they have noted the character whom you are and have become. What is this snark-fest you've been engaging in for a while now? The personal attacks are off the wall, Phat, I'm not attacking you as far as I know. Where is all this hostility coming from? My 30000 posts are not all about YEC issues, far from it, and the ones that are about YEC issues are evidenced, yes I give plenty of evidence for all my claims about geological and biological phenomena. I don't argue from the Bible in those discussions, though occasionally somebody pushes me to claim the Bible as my ultimate source, which it is. But the arguments I make are not Bible-based but based on observations of the geological and biological phenomena. I have the impression you haven't read much of them and don't know what you are talking about but you seem to hate me enough not to care what you are saying.
So what is the character of this God whom you worship? I would have thought I'd been pretty clear about that by now. Not sure this is the time to try to spell it out for you again.
You would claim only that the Bible alone describes Gods character. Yes I would.
Unlike me, you would not even attempt to describe this character whom allegedly gives you a biblically-informed mind...you would simply find His character within the scriptures in order to defend it. Seems to me I've often "attempted to describe the God of the Bible" but if I haven't I suppose I should do it more. Except for the hateful tone I guess I agree with the rest of what you are saying but I'm not sure. Yes, God is revealed to us only in His word. Yes. However, scripture does say He is also revealed in Nature, the same God with the same attributes of course which most of us aren't really able to recognize. "In order to defend it?" What on earth does that mean? He reveals Himself to us in the scriptures, Phat, what are you going on about? You seem to be angry about something, scathingly scornful, but why?
In fact, you would never even question what you believe or if your mind is not also deceived based on your belief that a biblically informed mind can never be wrong. Excuse me? I wouldn't question that God has given us all we need to know about Him in the scriptures, but that isn't the same thing as never questioning what I myself believe about it, since I can misread it or misinterpret it just as anyone else can. That's why I read a lot of preaching and theology, to minimize that risk. And I very often learn something new too, a new angle on a familiar passage for instance, some new information about the cultural or historical context, a deeper interpretation of a spiritual truth, there's always something new to be learned. I try not to depend on my own personal take on things, I try to present the traditional Christian beliefs objectively. The Westminster Confession of Faith is a good condensation of those beliefs if you want a reference to an objective source.
I used to believe what Schaffer and Glover write about. In fact, my beliefs were more in line with yours..(despite you thinking I know nothing about true biblical teaching, I know the whole basic belief and argument in support of it) But I can't agree with the reasoning. I simply have no evidence of that, Phat. You've never shown any real understanding of Biblical truth or any real interest in it. You've always seemed to lean to arguments against it. But what does "can't agree with the reasoning" mean? The reasoning is simple: there is no other source of knowledge of God than the written Word of God. Arguing with it will only remove you from the only source we have. Oh that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of things in it we don't understand and have questions about, but it means we don't dispute that the truth is there and the failure to grasp it is our own.
Here God spent millennia inspiring His prophets to give us the truth about Himself and you all ignore it and tear it to shreds. What is the point in having any belief in God at all if you're going to ignore the only source of objective knowledge about Him? How is it that an omnipotent all-wise Creator of all seen and unseen limits Himself to depending on humans to state His case for Him? OK now you are just going to try to undermine everything I've said with irrelevant questions. If you think your own subjective impressions of God are better than the written Word He's given us then believe your impressions. There are lots of answers to your question but I don't think it deserves those answers at the moment. You are clearly just in a mood to find fault.
And then likely foreknows that humans will argue with each other on the interpretation of His "objective" knowledge? More of same. Believe what you like, Phat.
One difference between you and I is that you trust your sources without hesitation because you believe that they all have biblically informed minds. Where do you get such an idea? I make judgments all the time about whether a particular source supports a biblical worldview or not, and I note places where I think a source errs. The more I've read the more I'm able to make such judgments.
One reason why I dont trust you is because though I trust God, and largely (though not blindly) trust the Bible. I dont trust that only some humans are biblically informed. That's another nearly incomprehensible statement, Phat. I'm not trying to set myself up as some kind of special representative of the biblical informed, I'm simply trying to BE biblically informed and present that point of view as well as I can. I'd refer you to Glover or Schaeffer or the Westminster Confession of Faith rather than to myself. But I have a pretty good ability to recognize sources that have the same biblially informed point of view, as do Glover and the great Francis Schaeffer. As I said, believe whatever you want about all that, at some point it's clearly futile to try to talk to you about these things. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Sorry if I've misread something but I don't want to review it all right now. What I remember is that you cited instances of murders of heretics by Islam and Roman Catholicism, plus a mention of some Puritans doing the same without giving any numbers, which I'm sure are minuscule and very short lived. That's all i remember from you, sorry if I missed something. I don't recall adding anything, just agreeing with the Islamic and Catholic examples. What you missed was my entire point. Just to recap, I said that as soon as religious people start crying herecy, bad thing happen and I gave you a few examples. You gave a few more. I consider that case proven.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What you missed was my entire point. Just to recap, I said that as soon as religious people start crying herecy, bad thing happen and I gave you a few examples. You gave a few more. I just skimmed through our posts and all I see is your Wikipedia reference which doesn't give any numbers but obviously refers to an extremely small number of incidents that lasted only a few years, and otherwise you just give examples from Islam and the RCC which I simply elaborated on. I didn't add more. All you have, as I said, is Islam and the RCC and a minuscule number of Protestants, which was MY point. Your attempt to put all "fundamentalists" in the same basket does not work.
I consider that case proven. How odd. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: All you have, as I said, is Islam and the RCC and a minuscule number of Protestants, which was MY point. Your attempt to put all "fundamentalists" in the same basket does not work. So I've given you examples of Catholic, Protestand and Islamic examples of states murdering people for having a different religion to themselves. How many more do you need? This is a lovely one:
quote: I had no idea firstly that people were still being murdered for heresy by the Spanish Inqisition in the 19th century, nor that the Catholic church still had those powers. The perfect example of why religions need to be removed entirely from secular roles in societies.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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So I've given you examples of Catholic, Protestand and Islamic examples of states murdering people for having a different religion to themselves. And I pointed out that the Protestant examples are always extremely few and quickly given up because it is recognized they violate the teachings of Biblical Christianity. I already explained that the RCC and Islam had no such compunctions. And still don't. And never will. Some other religions do persecute heretics too, such as the Zoroastrianism you point out. Hindus have stepped up their persecutions of the Christians in India recently for instance. Islam goes on enslaving and persecuting people all over Africa and the Far East and wherever they are. And again this is due to their ideology that says this is a good thing because Allah wants them to subjugate and overcome everyone on the planet that rejects him.
I had no idea firstly that people were still being murdered for heresy by the Spanish Inqisition in the 19th century, nor that the Catholic church still had those powers. The perfect example of why religions need to be removed entirely from secular roles in societies. Well I've pointed that out myself a few times, though the official "Spanish" Inquisition was really only a small part of their persecutions and murders of dissidents down the centuries. They've never closed the Office of the Inquisition which they would have if their occasional "apologies" meant anything, and they've never rescinded their long list of anathemas (curses) against Protestant beliefs in their Council of Trent. When Garibaldi conquered Rome in the 19th century he found dungeons still in use for torturing heretics. And I also quoted a letter from a Mexican pastor about how the Catholics were persecuting a group of Indian Protestants. I'll see if I can find those links. Since the Protestant Reformation set them back on their heels they've taken pains to keep it hidden from public view but it will never stop and if they ever regain their power it will no doubt come out in the open again. I'll see if I can dig up links to my posts on the subject. That was quick: Message 327 Turns out I've brought it up quite a few times but it gets repetitive. Here are two more: Message 283 and Message 97 ABE: However, I think it should also be mentioned since you think religions are the only offenders that Communism has killed many more and Hitler did too. In the name of secular ideologies, and Communism is still persecuting dissidents in China where the Christians are being particularly targeted recently. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: And I pointed out that the Protestant examples are always extremely few and quickly given up because it is recognized they violate the teachings of Biblical Christianity. Biblical Christianity teaches its followers that there is only one god and that God is a jealous god and that God commands its followers to kill anyone of speaking of different Gods. The only thing preventing religions enforcing their fundamentalist beliefs on others and dealing with heretics the way they are commanded is lack of access to physical worldly power. When zealots like yourself get their hands on that we see the results.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Technically, reading the book, I could see how you would conclude this. I was taught "Biblical Christianity" and got a different impression from it.
Biblical Christianity teaches its followers that there is only one god and that God is a jealous god and that God commands its followers to kill anyone of speaking of different Gods. quote:If Free Will is truly a valid concept in describing human relationship with God, and if God is anthropomorphized as having human characteristics and responses, He would be afraid that a third party--Satan---is quite capable of stealing humanity from Him. For whatever reason, He allowed the possibility for Satan to even exist and have the influence countering Gods perfect will. Don't ask me why...perhaps God needed to play this game to allow humans to freely love Him without His direct influence or power that they do. Critics of free will whine that they dont really have it because they are deprived of one option---making reality conform to their imagination. No matter how much one can argue that reality is based on science and evidence, this "belief" actually makes humans close to understanding the rules of reality without need of God. Which is precisely why God would be jealous. He set it up as a game that He might actually lose. As far as God commanding us to kill anyone, that is not the God modern believers follow. Jesus Christ is the one example of the God of Christianity---at least ideally. Realistically, you may have a point in that humans still "use" God as an excuse to kill whomever they want out of the way. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Technically, reading the book, I could see how you would conclude this. Technically my arse! It's there in black and white repeated over and over.
I was taught "Biblical Christianity" and got a different impression from it. Then you were taught something that is not biblical.
If Free Will is truly a valid concept in describing human relationship with God, and if God is anthropomorphized as having human characteristics and responses, He would be afraid that a third party--Satan---is quite capable of stealing humanity from Him. For whatever reason, He allowed the possibility for Satan to even exist and have the influence countering Gods perfect will. Don't ask me why...perhaps God needed to play this game to allow humans to freely love Him without His direct influence or power that they do. Don't you feel embarassed writing this stuff? I mean it's just silly really isn't it? You're talking about a God, not a petulent, spoilt child in a fairy story.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In your mind you have to make it silly. If God were to be taken seriously, you would lose your throne.
Hey, I get your argument. In many ways, it does sound silly. Made up. Sometimes truth is found through fiction, however. Don't ever forget that.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: In your mind you have to make it silly. But it *is* silly; to an outsider it sounds totally childish. You've been so steeped in this junk that you've normalised it.
If God were to be taken seriously, you would lose your throne. If it was taken seriously I'd be burnt alive, as per tradition.
Hey, I get your argument. In many ways, it does sound silly. Made up. Sometimes truth is found through fiction, however. Don't ever forget that. Truth is found in truth, why put your belief in fiction?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im not fully convinced that it is/was fiction. I've heard arguments from both sides.
As Pilate asked Jesus: What IS Truth? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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