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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 61 of 378 (844907)
12-07-2018 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
12-07-2018 12:56 PM


Re: Subjectivist heresies that are undermining Christianity
Faith writes:
I guess you have no idea whatever how bizarrely wrongheaded this notion is.
Of course not. That's why I follow it.
Feel free to explain why you think personal responsibility is bizarrely wrongheaded or anything else, though.
If it's reasonable, I'll change my position to something better. Always looking to get better!
Of course, if you can't explain it, or provide any reasonable critique... well... then it will seem like every other discussion with anyone holding fingers in their ears.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 62 of 378 (844908)
12-07-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
12-07-2018 12:14 PM


Re: Subjectivist heresies that are undermining Christianity
Faith writes:
Riverrat just more or less bragged about how he doesn't get his ideas about God from the church, Phat says something similar about the Bible: he has his own version of subjectivism though he answers Riverrat that he isn't completely in line with what he'd said. GDR's views are unfolding more and more lately as a clearcut heresy of some sort, sort of reminiscent of Robert Schuller of Crystal Cathedral fame I think, though I'm not exactly sure how to label it. Now we've got Percy describing his own belief in God as something that's just in him, that he can't defend objectively, it's just there. And Stile just joined the lineup with a thread proposal about a totally subjective approach to believing in God or not believing according to what feels right or something like that. Who am I forgetting?
All of these listed object to making the Bible the foundation of their belief, aggressively attacking it in some cases. Here God spent millennia inspiring His prophets to give us the truth about Himself and you all ignore it and tear it to shreds. What is the point in having any belief in God at all if you're going to ignore the only source of objective knowledge about Him?
My problem isnt with the source. This is more your problem. I will explain. Glover sums it up rather well when he states:
quote:
1) As a result of the paradigm shift from faith governed by the biblically-informed mind,to faith governed by the "inner spirit of the heart", we may have forgotten (Jeremiah 17:9)without the renewed mind the heart is deceitful above all things..
Thus what your side is essentially saying is that the Bible is the beginning and ending of truth--period and that unless people return to this truth, all is lost. So first of all, what is a biblically informed mind? Does it mean that God Himself speaks to you through the Word and gives you infallible wisdom and truth? Seriously?
The same so-called truth that leads you to make 30,000 posts arguing YEC without evidence, rejecting most evidence from a world of established scientists, and ranting out your "objective truth" like Isaiah hmself? Look around at your audience. They have not been swayed by anything you have said, but they have noted the character whom you are and have become.
Hey, who am I to question God ? Maybe He sent you to challenge the evolutionists and fellow semi-Christians(as you see us) alike. Maybe.
So what is the character of this God whom you worship?
You would claim only that the Bible alone describes Gods character. Unlike me, you would not even attempt to describe this character whom allegedly gives you a biblically-informed mind...you would simply find His character within the scriptures in order to defend it. In fact, you would never even question what you believe or if your mind is not also deceived based on your belief that a biblically informed mind can never be wrong. I used to believe what Schaffer and Glover write about. In fact, my beliefs were more in line with yours..(despite you thinking I know nothing about true biblical teaching, I know the whole basic belief and argument in support of it) But I can't agree with the reasoning.
Lets just take one point.
Here God spent millennia inspiring His prophets to give us the truth about Himself and you all ignore it and tear it to shreds. What is the point in having any belief in God at all if you're going to ignore the only source of objective knowledge about Him?
How is it that an omnipotent all-wise Creator of all seen and unseen limits Himself to depending on humans to state His case for Him? And then likely foreknows that humans will argue with each other on the interpretation of His "objective" knowledge? One difference between you and I is that you trust your sources without hesitation because you believe that they all have biblically informed minds. One reason why I dont trust you is because though I trust God, and largely (though not blindly) trust the Bible. I dont trust that only some humans are biblically informed.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 10:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 63 of 378 (844909)
12-07-2018 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
12-07-2018 1:38 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
That's a lie, and all you've done is assert it. I answered your one puny false example. Give us some evidence for your false accusation.
So now I'm confused.
I gave you several instances of religions murdering heretics, you gave me some more. What is your complaint?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 9:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 378 (844915)
12-07-2018 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Tangle
12-07-2018 6:07 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Sorry if I've misread something but I don't want to review it all right now. What I remember is that you cited instances of murders of heretics by Islam and Roman Catholicism, plus a mention of some Puritans doing the same without giving any numbers, which I'm sure are minuscule and very short lived. That's all i remember from you, sorry if I missed something. I don't recall adding anything, just agreeing with the Islamic and Catholic examples.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 6:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2018 5:46 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 378 (844917)
12-07-2018 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
12-07-2018 4:04 PM


Re: Subjectivist heresies that are undermining Christianity
Thus what your side is essentially saying is that the Bible is the beginning and ending of truth--period ...
Yes, that is it, the Bible is our only source of truth about God.
So first of all, what is a biblically informed mind?
Pretty simple, Phat: it's a mind pretty well informed of what the Bible says, and I'd add also informed about how the best theologians down the centuries have interpreted it, so as to avoid the wild surmises people come up with on their own, which is in abundant evidence at EvC -- five totally different subjective ideas about God from the five people who happened to describe their views recently. And of course a biblicall informed mind also means a mind that believes what the Bible says as carefully learned through many teachers.
Does it mean that God Himself speaks to you through the Word and gives you infallible wisdom and truth? Seriously?
It means that it contains God's infallible wisdom and truth and we do well to try to learn it. And yes believers do often experience God's speaking to us through it, but I don't want to emphasize that in this context because the way you put it is a bit odd or at least I'm not sure what you mean.
The same so-called truth that leads you to make 30,000 posts arguing YEC without evidence, rejecting most evidence from a world of established scientists, and ranting out your "objective truth" like Isaiah hmself? Look around at your audience. They have not been swayed by anything you have said, but they have noted the character whom you are and have become.
What is this snark-fest you've been engaging in for a while now? The personal attacks are off the wall, Phat, I'm not attacking you as far as I know. Where is all this hostility coming from?
My 30000 posts are not all about YEC issues, far from it, and the ones that are about YEC issues are evidenced, yes I give plenty of evidence for all my claims about geological and biological phenomena. I don't argue from the Bible in those discussions, though occasionally somebody pushes me to claim the Bible as my ultimate source, which it is. But the arguments I make are not Bible-based but based on observations of the geological and biological phenomena. I have the impression you haven't read much of them and don't know what you are talking about but you seem to hate me enough not to care what you are saying.
So what is the character of this God whom you worship?
I would have thought I'd been pretty clear about that by now. Not sure this is the time to try to spell it out for you again.
You would claim only that the Bible alone describes Gods character.
Yes I would.
Unlike me, you would not even attempt to describe this character whom allegedly gives you a biblically-informed mind...you would simply find His character within the scriptures in order to defend it.
Seems to me I've often "attempted to describe the God of the Bible" but if I haven't I suppose I should do it more. Except for the hateful tone I guess I agree with the rest of what you are saying but I'm not sure. Yes, God is revealed to us only in His word. Yes. However, scripture does say He is also revealed in Nature, the same God with the same attributes of course which most of us aren't really able to recognize. "In order to defend it?" What on earth does that mean? He reveals Himself to us in the scriptures, Phat, what are you going on about? You seem to be angry about something, scathingly scornful, but why?
In fact, you would never even question what you believe or if your mind is not also deceived based on your belief that a biblically informed mind can never be wrong.
Excuse me? I wouldn't question that God has given us all we need to know about Him in the scriptures, but that isn't the same thing as never questioning what I myself believe about it, since I can misread it or misinterpret it just as anyone else can. That's why I read a lot of preaching and theology, to minimize that risk. And I very often learn something new too, a new angle on a familiar passage for instance, some new information about the cultural or historical context, a deeper interpretation of a spiritual truth, there's always something new to be learned. I try not to depend on my own personal take on things, I try to present the traditional Christian beliefs objectively. The Westminster Confession of Faith is a good condensation of those beliefs if you want a reference to an objective source.
I used to believe what Schaffer and Glover write about. In fact, my beliefs were more in line with yours..(despite you thinking I know nothing about true biblical teaching, I know the whole basic belief and argument in support of it) But I can't agree with the reasoning.
I simply have no evidence of that, Phat. You've never shown any real understanding of Biblical truth or any real interest in it. You've always seemed to lean to arguments against it. But what does "can't agree with the reasoning" mean? The reasoning is simple: there is no other source of knowledge of God than the written Word of God. Arguing with it will only remove you from the only source we have. Oh that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of things in it we don't understand and have questions about, but it means we don't dispute that the truth is there and the failure to grasp it is our own.
Here God spent millennia inspiring His prophets to give us the truth about Himself and you all ignore it and tear it to shreds. What is the point in having any belief in God at all if you're going to ignore the only source of objective knowledge about Him?
How is it that an omnipotent all-wise Creator of all seen and unseen limits Himself to depending on humans to state His case for Him?
OK now you are just going to try to undermine everything I've said with irrelevant questions. If you think your own subjective impressions of God are better than the written Word He's given us then believe your impressions. There are lots of answers to your question but I don't think it deserves those answers at the moment. You are clearly just in a mood to find fault.
And then likely foreknows that humans will argue with each other on the interpretation of His "objective" knowledge?
More of same. Believe what you like, Phat.
One difference between you and I is that you trust your sources without hesitation because you believe that they all have biblically informed minds.
Where do you get such an idea? I make judgments all the time about whether a particular source supports a biblical worldview or not, and I note places where I think a source errs. The more I've read the more I'm able to make such judgments.
One reason why I dont trust you is because though I trust God, and largely (though not blindly) trust the Bible. I dont trust that only some humans are biblically informed.
That's another nearly incomprehensible statement, Phat. I'm not trying to set myself up as some kind of special representative of the biblical informed, I'm simply trying to BE biblically informed and present that point of view as well as I can. I'd refer you to Glover or Schaeffer or the Westminster Confession of Faith rather than to myself. But I have a pretty good ability to recognize sources that have the same biblially informed point of view, as do Glover and the great Francis Schaeffer. As I said, believe whatever you want about all that, at some point it's clearly futile to try to talk to you about these things.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 12-07-2018 4:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 66 of 378 (844921)
12-08-2018 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
12-07-2018 9:26 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
Sorry if I've misread something but I don't want to review it all right now. What I remember is that you cited instances of murders of heretics by Islam and Roman Catholicism, plus a mention of some Puritans doing the same without giving any numbers, which I'm sure are minuscule and very short lived. That's all i remember from you, sorry if I missed something. I don't recall adding anything, just agreeing with the Islamic and Catholic examples.
What you missed was my entire point.
Just to recap, I said that as soon as religious people start crying herecy, bad thing happen and I gave you a few examples. You gave a few more.
I consider that case proven.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 9:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 12-09-2018 6:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 378 (844948)
12-09-2018 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tangle
12-08-2018 5:46 AM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
What you missed was my entire point.
Just to recap, I said that as soon as religious people start crying herecy, bad thing happen and I gave you a few examples. You gave a few more.
I just skimmed through our posts and all I see is your Wikipedia reference which doesn't give any numbers but obviously refers to an extremely small number of incidents that lasted only a few years, and otherwise you just give examples from Islam and the RCC which I simply elaborated on. I didn't add more. All you have, as I said, is Islam and the RCC and a minuscule number of Protestants, which was MY point. Your attempt to put all "fundamentalists" in the same basket does not work.
I consider that case proven.
How odd.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2018 5:46 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2018 3:43 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 68 of 378 (844959)
12-09-2018 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
12-09-2018 6:03 AM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
Faith writes:
All you have, as I said, is Islam and the RCC and a minuscule number of Protestants, which was MY point. Your attempt to put all "fundamentalists" in the same basket does not work.
So I've given you examples of Catholic, Protestand and Islamic examples of states murdering people for having a different religion to themselves. How many more do you need? This is a lovely one:
quote:
Although Zoroastrianism has had an historical tolerance for other religions, it also held sects like Zurvanism and Mazdakism heretical to its main dogma and has violently persecuted them, such as burying Mazdakians with their feet upright as "human gardens". In later periods Zoroastrians cooperated with Muslims to kill other Zoroastrians deemed as heretical.[55]
I had no idea firstly that people were still being murdered for heresy by the Spanish Inqisition in the 19th century, nor that the Catholic church still had those powers. The perfect example of why religions need to be removed entirely from secular roles in societies.
quote:
The last case of an execution by the inquisition was that of the schoolmaster Cayetano Ripoll, accused of deism by the waning Spanish Inquisition and hanged on 26 July 1826 in Valencia after a two-year trial.[19] Eight years later in 1834, Spain, the last remaining government to still be providing the Catholic Church with the right to pronounce and effect capital punishment, formally withdrew that right from the Church. The era of such absolute Church authority had lasted some 1,449 years, from AD 385 through to 1834. The number of people executed as heretics as sentenced by various church authorities is not known; however it most certainly numbers into the several thousands. Coincidentally, the first heretic executed had been a Spaniard, Priscillian; the most notorious organization known for the persecution of heretics had been based in Spain, the Spanish Inquisition, and the last heretic executed had been a Spaniard, Cayetano Ripoll. Thus, the era of the execution of heretics by the Catholic Church had come to an end.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 12-09-2018 6:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 12-09-2018 5:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 69 of 378 (844988)
12-09-2018 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
12-09-2018 3:43 AM


Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
So I've given you examples of Catholic, Protestand and Islamic examples of states murdering people for having a different religion to themselves.
And I pointed out that the Protestant examples are always extremely few and quickly given up because it is recognized they violate the teachings of Biblical Christianity. I already explained that the RCC and Islam had no such compunctions. And still don't. And never will.
Some other religions do persecute heretics too, such as the Zoroastrianism you point out. Hindus have stepped up their persecutions of the Christians in India recently for instance. Islam goes on enslaving and persecuting people all over Africa and the Far East and wherever they are. And again this is due to their ideology that says this is a good thing because Allah wants them to subjugate and overcome everyone on the planet that rejects him.
I had no idea firstly that people were still being murdered for heresy by the Spanish Inqisition in the 19th century, nor that the Catholic church still had those powers. The perfect example of why religions need to be removed entirely from secular roles in societies.
Well I've pointed that out myself a few times, though the official "Spanish" Inquisition was really only a small part of their persecutions and murders of dissidents down the centuries. They've never closed the Office of the Inquisition which they would have if their occasional "apologies" meant anything, and they've never rescinded their long list of anathemas (curses) against Protestant beliefs in their Council of Trent. When Garibaldi conquered Rome in the 19th century he found dungeons still in use for torturing heretics. And I also quoted a letter from a Mexican pastor about how the Catholics were persecuting a group of Indian Protestants. I'll see if I can find those links. Since the Protestant Reformation set them back on their heels they've taken pains to keep it hidden from public view but it will never stop and if they ever regain their power it will no doubt come out in the open again. I'll see if I can dig up links to my posts on the subject.
That was quick: Message 327
Turns out I've brought it up quite a few times but it gets repetitive. Here are two more: Message 283 and Message 97
ABE: However, I think it should also be mentioned since you think religions are the only offenders that Communism has killed many more and Hitler did too. In the name of secular ideologies, and Communism is still persecuting dissidents in China where the Christians are being particularly targeted recently.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2018 3:43 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 3:40 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 70 of 378 (845002)
12-10-2018 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
12-09-2018 5:51 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Faith writes:
And I pointed out that the Protestant examples are always extremely few and quickly given up because it is recognized they violate the teachings of Biblical Christianity.
Biblical Christianity teaches its followers that there is only one god and that God is a jealous god and that God commands its followers to kill anyone of speaking of different Gods.
The only thing preventing religions enforcing their fundamentalist beliefs on others and dealing with heretics the way they are commanded is lack of access to physical worldly power. When zealots like yourself get their hands on that we see the results.
quote:
Deuteronomy 13
Do Not Worship Other Gods

13 Suppose a prophet appears among you. Or someone comes who uses dreams to tell what’s going to happen. He tells you that a sign or something amazing is going to take place. 2 The sign or amazing thing he has spoken about might really take place. And then the prophet might say, Let’s serve other gods. Let’s worship them. But you haven’t known anything about those gods before. 3 So you must not listen to what that prophet or dreamer has said. The Lord your God is testing you. He wants to know whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You must worship him. You must honor him. Keep his commands. Obey him. Serve him. Remain true to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death. He told you not to obey the Lord your God. The Lord brought you out of Egypt. He set you free from the land where you were slaves. He commanded you to live the way he wants you to. But that prophet or dreamer has tried to get you to be unfaithful to the Lord. Get rid of that evil person.
6 Suppose your very own brother or sister secretly tempts you to do something wrong. Or your child or the wife you love tempts you. Or your closest friend does it. Suppose one of them says, Let’s go and worship other gods. But you and your people of long ago hadn’t known anything about those gods before. 7 They are the gods of the nations around you. Those nations might be near or far away. In fact, they might reach from one end of the land to the other. 8 Don’t give in to those who are tempting you. Don’t listen to them. Don’t feel sorry for them. Don’t spare them or save them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. You must be the first to throw stones at them. Then all the people must do the same thing. 10 Put them to death by throwing stones at them. They tried to turn you away from the Lord your God. He brought you out of Egypt. That’s the land where you were slaves. 11 After you kill those who tempted you, all the Israelites will hear about it. And they will be too scared to do an evil thing like that again.
12 The Lord your God is giving you towns to live in. But suppose you hear something bad about one of those towns. 13 You hear that people who cause trouble have appeared among you. They’ve tried to get the people of their town to do something wrong. They’ve said, Let’s go and worship other gods. But you haven’t known anything about those gods before. 14 So you must ask people some questions. You must check out the matter carefully. If it’s true, an evil thing has really happened among you. It’s something the Lord hates. 15 Then you must certainly kill with your swords everyone who lives in that town. You must destroy it completely. You must wipe out its people and livestock. 16 You must gather all the goods of that town into the middle of the main street. You must burn the town completely. You must burn up everything in it. It’s a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. The town must remain a pile of stones forever. It must never be built again. 17 Don’t keep anything that should be destroyed. Then the Lord will turn away from his great anger. He will show you mercy. He’ll have deep concern for you. He’ll cause there to be many of you. That’s what he promised your people of long ago. He gave his word when he made the promise. 18 The Lord your God will do those things if you obey him. I’m giving you his commands today. And you must obey all of them. You must do what is right in his eyes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 12-09-2018 5:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 11:32 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 2:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 378 (845014)
12-10-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Tangle
12-10-2018 3:40 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Tangle writes:
Biblical Christianity teaches its followers that there is only one god and that God is a jealous god and that God commands its followers to kill anyone of speaking of different Gods.
Technically, reading the book, I could see how you would conclude this. I was taught "Biblical Christianity" and got a different impression from it.
  • Yes, we are taught that there is only One God. Monotheism.
  • God is jealous not out of a need of His own, however. This from Psychology Today
    quote:
    Jealousy is a complex emotion that encompasses feelings ranging from fear of abandonment to rage and humiliation. It strikes both men and women and is most typically aroused when a person perceives a threat to a valued relationship from a third party. The threat may be real or imagined. Not limited to romantic relationships, jealousy can also arise among siblings competing for parental attention, among co-workers, or in friendships. Jealousy is distinguished from envy in that jealousy always involves a third party seen as a rival for affection. Envy occurs between two people and is best summed up as "I want what you have." Although jealousy is a painful emotional experience, evolutionary psychologists regard it not as an emotion to be suppressed but as one to heedas a signal, a wake-up call that a valued relationship is in danger and that steps need to be taken to regain the affection of one's mate or friend. As a result, jealousy is seen as a necessary emotion, because it preserves social bonds. It motivates people to engage in behaviors that maintain important relationships.
    If Free Will is truly a valid concept in describing human relationship with God, and if God is anthropomorphized as having human characteristics and responses, He would be afraid that a third party--Satan---is quite capable of stealing humanity from Him. For whatever reason, He allowed the possibility for Satan to even exist and have the influence countering Gods perfect will. Don't ask me why...perhaps God needed to play this game to allow humans to freely love Him without His direct influence or power that they do. Critics of free will whine that they dont really have it because they are deprived of one option---making reality conform to their imagination. No matter how much one can argue that reality is based on science and evidence, this "belief" actually makes humans close to understanding the rules of reality without need of God. Which is precisely why God would be jealous. He set it up as a game that He might actually lose. As far as God commanding us to kill anyone, that is not the God modern believers follow. Jesus Christ is the one example of the God of Christianity---at least ideally. Realistically, you may have a point in that humans still "use" God as an excuse to kill whomever they want out of the way.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 3:40 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 72 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 11:48 AM Phat has replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 9489
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.9


    Message 72 of 378 (845016)
    12-10-2018 11:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
    12-10-2018 11:32 AM


    Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
    Faith writes:
    Technically, reading the book, I could see how you would conclude this.
    Technically my arse! It's there in black and white repeated over and over.
    I was taught "Biblical Christianity" and got a different impression from it.
    Then you were taught something that is not biblical.
    If Free Will is truly a valid concept in describing human relationship with God, and if God is anthropomorphized as having human characteristics and responses, He would be afraid that a third party--Satan---is quite capable of stealing humanity from Him. For whatever reason, He allowed the possibility for Satan to even exist and have the influence countering Gods perfect will. Don't ask me why...perhaps God needed to play this game to allow humans to freely love Him without His direct influence or power that they do.
    Don't you feel embarassed writing this stuff? I mean it's just silly really isn't it? You're talking about a God, not a petulent, spoilt child in a fairy story.

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 11:32 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 11:51 AM Tangle has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 73 of 378 (845017)
    12-10-2018 11:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
    12-10-2018 11:48 AM


    Who Is In Charge?
    In your mind you have to make it silly. If God were to be taken seriously, you would lose your throne.
    Hey, I get your argument. In many ways, it does sound silly. Made up. Sometimes truth is found through fiction, however. Don't ever forget that.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 72 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 11:48 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 12:00 PM Phat has replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 9489
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.9


    (1)
    Message 74 of 378 (845018)
    12-10-2018 12:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
    12-10-2018 11:51 AM


    Re: Who Is In Charge?
    Phat writes:
    In your mind you have to make it silly.
    But it *is* silly; to an outsider it sounds totally childish. You've been so steeped in this junk that you've normalised it.
    If God were to be taken seriously, you would lose your throne.
    If it was taken seriously I'd be burnt alive, as per tradition.
    Hey, I get your argument. In many ways, it does sound silly. Made up. Sometimes truth is found through fiction, however. Don't ever forget that.
    Truth is found in truth, why put your belief in fiction?

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 11:51 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 12:02 PM Tangle has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 75 of 378 (845019)
    12-10-2018 12:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
    12-10-2018 12:00 PM


    Re: Who Is In Charge?
    Im not fully convinced that it is/was fiction. I've heard arguments from both sides.
    As Pilate asked Jesus: What IS Truth?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 12:00 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 76 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 12:15 PM Phat has replied

      
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