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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 5 of 378 (844344)
11-28-2018 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
11-28-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Phat writes:
Yes, Tangle...in this topic we are freely making it all up...that's the guidelines
What possible result are you hoping for?
If you're looking for what happens when we make beliefs up I offer you every religion in the world plus the Flying Spaghetti Monster, The Force, Eywa and Galdalf the White amonst many, may others.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 11-28-2018 11:56 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 12:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 8 of 378 (844394)
11-29-2018 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
11-29-2018 12:16 AM


Re: Reply To Tangle
Phat writes:
In this topic, I want to get to the hypothetical idea that a Creator of all seen and unseen exists, that such a Creator is capable of communing with and relating to humans, and that this is done in some way, shape, or form through specific human(s) to other humans.
But this is simply your position that you and others here have argued for years. I don't accept this belief and I don't see how pretending that I do helps anything.
When you go fishing and meditate, you also get answers and perhaps many more questions through your own imagination and consciousness.
Why do you assume all this mysticism? When I go fishing I spend most of my time trying to work out how to catch fish and the rest admiring the scenery and thinking how lucky I am to be doing it.
Why is it so bothersome for you to simply imagine a Creator of all seen and unseen with an ability to impress upon human philosophies and thoughts?
Ringo spends roughly one post per week explaining to you that he once believed the stuff you believe and you routinely let that statement pass right over you as though it's not an important point.
What you're essentially asking us to do is go back to our childhood and imagine Father Christmas is real and discuss him as though he was. To us that is just bloody silly. We've grown up.
You always go back to primitive superstitions and about how much science has learned about how and why we think and believe the way that we do.
That's because it's true! Why would I go back to fiction?
Don't be afraid. Make God up, and then answer the question of how such a hypothetical timeless concept would relate to humanity within time.
Why? That's your position not mine. The way it works here is that you do all that and we tell you why it's nonsence.
Perhaps I should clarify and add that you don't have to make up a God per se...perhaps you could utilize concepts such as fate, destiny, and the philosophical meaning of what hypothetically happens when a human fights for relevance, purpose, and legacy...either through their own personal accomplishments or vicariously through their offspring and fate intervenes...one way or another. Or perhaps you could also criticize the concept of fate itself.
None of this makes any sense to me. It's all mystical bunkum that I once believed but rejected decades ago.
I think you might make more progress in understanding those ideas if YOU could begin to imagine not having them. Unlike me trying to imagine your world which I don't have to do because I've been there and done that, why don't you try to imagine mine? I know it's something you guys find impossible but maybe it's worth a try.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 12:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 3:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 10 of 378 (844398)
11-29-2018 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
11-29-2018 3:50 AM


Re: Reply To Tangle
Phat writes:
Not necessarily. You still believe in luck and chance.
Nothing we say ever touches the sides does it? You can't escape your bubble and just accept what we tell you.
I DON'T BELIEVE IN LUCK AND CHANCE.
You even use the words a lot. I'll never be able to convince you that its all a myth,
Of course you can; I'm a rationalist, you can easily change my mind about anything, all you have to do is produce the evidence. There's a science of chance and probability it's called statistics. It relies of the FACT that there is such a thingas chance so it'll be an up hill struggle for you but if you have the facts you can do it.
and you will forever be pointing me to examples in science where it is real, but you don't see the bigger picture...the foreknown predetermination of the value of the probability.
There you go again, talking bollox. Show this thing that you call foreknowledge and I'll change my mind.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 3:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 4:23 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 13 of 378 (844402)
11-29-2018 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
11-29-2018 4:23 AM


Re: Reply To Tangle
Phat writes:
Well, can we just move on with the topic? I don't feel like tangling with you right now...I want to discuss the concept of Open Theism.
Wiz.....straight over your head again with hardly an upward glance.
But regardless, what's different about this than all the other freewill vs foreknowledge threads there's been here?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 4:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 26 of 378 (844478)
11-30-2018 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
11-30-2018 4:16 PM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:
Nothing has changed---except that I would argue that we will never outgrow our need for such a communion. On the contrary, we will grow to need it more and more. Mark my words.
You're just speaking for yourself again. The trend in modern Western democracies is quite obviously the reverse. The trend is less and less.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 4:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 378 (844568)
12-02-2018 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
12-01-2018 6:03 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
Faith writes:
Uh, cuz normally an author is trying to convey something in particular and we call that the orthodox understanding, so other interpretations are false and we call those heresies.
We are the holders of the truth, the one truth, the defenders of the faith. Heretics shall be burnt at the stake lest their infidel ideas pollute the minds of our children. Thus we have spoken.
And that, my dearly beloved, is how bad stuff happens.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 12-01-2018 6:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 11:01 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 12-02-2018 6:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 32 of 378 (844578)
12-02-2018 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
12-02-2018 11:01 AM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
Phat writes:
I am currently leaning towards the theory(belief) that humans do in fact make up their interpretations and understandings of a universal truth. My belief, of course, is that such a truth does exist and that there is but One God
Well that's progress of sorts. It's fashionable to dump the stuff that makes their religion what it is yet still maintain a belief in a belief. It allows the emasculated belief to continue.
To be an atheist, in contrast, is to support relativism where truth is unique to each and every individual
Over and over you tell me/us what atheism is and over and over we tell you that you're wrong. I wonder why you do that? Is it so you can maintain a belief that's fading away into wishy-washy, cultural nothingness?
Not once have I said to myself that truth is unique to an individual. The simple reason being that it would be a really, really stupid thing to say. 'Hey Charlie, how's gravity for you today?'
Why should I assume that John Calvin knows anything more than what any modern scholar with a heart for truth would know? To simply fall back on the belief that the Bible is the one source for universal Truth is, in my opinion,a decision that is risky. Too much evidence against inerrancy.
Yup
A Belief in One all-knowing Creator with a perfect desire and plan for humanity is more logical.
Nope.
That's not logical, nor does it coincide with the evidence unless this God is a needy psychopath inflicting needless pain and suffering on all his creation all the time, but it does have the advantage of not being easily proven wrong like the other stuff.
If God exists, God exists period. If not, then no.
Er...yes, can't argue with that.
I refuse to concede this argument....there is not enough intelligence that convinces me to reject the idea and belief. In contrast, my personal experience confirms the need for this belief as well as the possibility that it is true.
Your need to believe is obvious.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 11:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 11:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 34 of 378 (844581)
12-02-2018 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
12-02-2018 11:55 AM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
Phat writes:
Note that you say *we*. What your group of "we" do is to follow the evidence.
Even that's not true. Most atheists I know never think about their non-belief at all. It's a non-belief. Like you don't think about Vishna and all its trappings. You have to put yourself in a society where belief is not a thing. Tricky for you I know but try it. If the majority of people are defacto atheists what you get is the entire cross section of people, warts and all, with all their foibles, failings and fables. Some will be rationalists following evidence some will be artists away with the fairies. How they think and act has got nothing whatsoever to do with not believing in a god.
I fail to see any consensus in your worldviews apart from that.
Well done. But I can guarantee that very, very few of them go around talking mystical twaddle like that. To be an atheist, in contrast, is to support relativism where truth is unique to each and every individual That's your superimposition of your own thoughts onto theirs.
It's your very own belief telling you that atheism is the equal and opposite of your own. It's nothing of the kind.
As is your need for evidence.
Sure is. All other methods fail.
You have a faulty argument concerning God, however. The problem is that you follow the evidence from books and manuscripts describing such a critter rather than imagining a God above such petty human defects.
Uh? As non-sequiturs go, that was a blinder.
Of course, you won't even allow yourself to make one up.
but, but but but......why on earth would I? What is the point of making stuff up that you know to be made up? What would I do with my made up god? Get on my knees and worship it? That's bonkers.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 11:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 40 of 378 (844632)
12-03-2018 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
12-02-2018 6:09 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
Faith writes:
Kinda sorta like creationism is a heresy according to the ToE?
No, not like that. There are hundreds of thousands of scientists that believe in creation and also accept the ToE. They are not incompatible at all. After all this time, you still don't understand the ToE.
There must be hundreds of "Christian" heresies in the world at the moment, possibly at least half of them in evidence on EvC. Where's the "bad stuff?"
We've overcome most of them, thankfully. You'd have them back though if we allowed it.
Perhaps you are thinking of Roman Catholicism for "bad stuff" such as murdering heretics?
You bet. But also several other religions that do despiccable things even now for religious reasons - like throwing homosexuals off tall buildings and murdering people for invented blasphemies
That's just one of the many reasons the papal institution is not Christian (which doesn't mean individual Catholics aren't.)
Your un-Christian prejudice is showing again.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 12-02-2018 6:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 12-03-2018 4:10 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 12-03-2018 6:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 42 of 378 (844635)
12-03-2018 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
12-03-2018 4:10 AM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
Faith writes:
Correction: For creationism read YEC.
And for YEC read loonytunes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 12-03-2018 4:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 12-03-2018 6:22 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 45 of 378 (844690)
12-04-2018 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
12-03-2018 6:30 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
You'd said a lot of "bad stuff" can be found in Christianity because we dare to identify the true doctrine against the heretical?
I say a lot of bad stuff happens when religious fundamentalists get their own way and start declaring others as heretics.
I pointed to the RC Church as the only source of "bad stuff" against "heretics" I'm aware of (heretics according to them anyway, though in reality they murdered millions of true Christians along with all sorts of others). I mentioned that there are lots of other heresies that don't do "bad stuff" and continue to go on being heretical even at EvC. But you've "overcome" them? Huh? I'd "have them back if I could?" Huh?
Heretic thought and subsequent action is not confined to Catholics or Christianity.
I thought we were talking about Christian heresies. How did Islam get in here?
YOU may be talking about Christian heresy, because you're obsessed by your little world. I'M talking about fundamentalists generally who want to impose their doctrine on everyboady at all costs. The result is what happened with so called 'Christians' in the middle-ages and what's happening now in the Middle East.
But no doubt, if you and your like-minded believers got your way, it would result in a lot of very 'bad things, happening to people who disagree with you. You cry heresy all day long and expect something to be done about it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 12-03-2018 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 11:30 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 47 of 378 (844880)
12-07-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
12-07-2018 11:30 AM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
Getting accused of something that has never happened and isn't likely to happen, based only on atheist paranoia or something like that, is a pretty depressing experience.
It's happening all the time in many parts of the world. People are being murdered for what they call blasphemy. In Pakistan there's been national riots over it.
quote:
Asia Bibi: sentenced to death over a cup of water
Asia Bibi was kept in solitary confinement on death row after being convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan over an argument about a cup of water. Now, after her acquittal eight years later, she is in fear for her life.
Even in the developed world blasphemy laws still exist, Ireland only dropped theirs this year. Stephen Fry was being investigated for blasphemy
quote:
Stephen Fry was interviewed on the RT programme 'The meaning of life' in 2015.
When asked what he would say if he ever confronted god in an afterlife, he said: "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world so full of injustice and pain?"
"The god that created this universe, if it was created by a god, is quite clearly a maniac, utter maniac, totally selfish."
A member of the public complained to garda (Irish police) about Mr Fry's comments.
Garda subsequently carried out an investigation under the 2009 blasphemy laws, but later dropped the investigation.
Did you notice that - the *2009* blasphemy law!! Luckily. the fundamentalist idiots have finally been outvoted.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 11:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 12-07-2018 12:09 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:18 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 52 of 378 (844889)
12-07-2018 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
12-07-2018 12:18 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
As I already pointed out, the only examples you have or ever can or will have of your claim that the idea of heresy always leads to "bad stuff" is Islam and Roman Catholicism.
90 seconds on google...
quote:
For some years after the Reformation, Protestant churches were also known to execute those they considered heretics, including Catholics []
Another example of the persecution of heretics under Protestant rule was the execution of the Boston martyrs in 1659, 1660, and 1661. These executions resulted from the actions of the Anglican Puritans, who at that time wielded political as well as ecclesiastic control in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. At the time, the colony leaders were apparently hoping to achieve their vision of a "purer absolute theocracy" within their colony .[citation needed] As such, they perceived the teachings and practices of the rival Quaker sect as heretical, even to the point where laws were passed and executions were performed with the aim of ridding their colony of such perceived "heresies".[citation needed] It should be noticed that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox communions generally regard the Puritans themselves as having been heterodox or heretical.
Heresy - Wikipedia
How many examples do you require?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 55 of 378 (844892)
12-07-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
12-07-2018 12:18 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
abe(Oh, and this Stephen Fry is a complete idiot).
Stephen Fry is a funny and highly intelligent man who also happens to be gay and homosexual, traits that could get him murdered by the state in some countries and prosecuted in even some modern Western ones.
And luckily being thought an idiot by fundamendaist idiots does not yet constitute a criminal offense

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 56 of 378 (844893)
12-07-2018 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
12-07-2018 1:00 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
Let me know when you're approaching fifty million which was the tally of Bible Christians killed by Rome over six centuries. The examples you give don't include numbers, for some reason, and were very short-lived as it was soon recognized that it is a violation of Christian faith.
Islam has murdered untold numbers, I don't think anyone knows. Mohammed himself wiped out a whole Jewish town.
Thank you, that's exactly my point.
As soon as religious fundamentalists get in charge they start crying heresy and killing people.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
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