Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Punctuated Equilibria: The Basics
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 4 of 72 (816156)
07-30-2017 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
07-30-2017 4:47 AM


Rapid expansion of the new species
If speciation occurs rapidly in a limited area we will only observe it in the fossil record if we have a very good record for that exact time and place (which is limited by our explorations, as well as by the limits of the record itself). While we have such records for some times and places they are more the exception than the rule.
The other phase of punk-eek as I understand it, is that once this new species has evolved it expands outside its "incubation" habitat, and pushes into the areas inhabited by the parent population, displacing it. In the fossil record this looks like one species being replaced by a different one, with no intermediates at this species level.
Creationists like to point to this as evidence of special creation of new species.
For an idea of how a small initial population could spread into other habitats see Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium. This takes several species that were introduced into North America with small initial populations and looks at their survival.
quote:
  1. European House Sparrow
  2. European Starling
  3. English Skylark
  4. Crested Myna
  5. Chukar
  6. Budgerigar
  7. Rose-ringed Parakeets
Conclusions
Thus we see two extremely successful dispersions and others of limited success and finally some that succeeded only to lose out to later competition. Obviously not all introductions are successful, and just as obviously not all newly evolved species will win out in similar circumstances.
Native species are being impacted by the "successful" introductions (Starlings and House Sparrows) but they are still viable at this time (probably most impacted is the Eastern Bluebird). There was no eco-niche vacuum for the newcomers to fill and there was competition, but they have been able to disperse across the continent.
Any one of these would have appeared "suddenly" and "without any transitions" in the fossil record.
(Once a new species has evolved it could disperse in much the same way, and if they evolved in isolation in a small area or an area that didn't make fossils then there would be no record of any transitions).
While these examples are all birds and thus able to disperse widely fairly rapidly, the same process would hold for other organisms, with the rapidity of the dispersal dependent on their mobility.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 07-30-2017 4:47 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-30-2017 2:29 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 6 by CRR, posted 07-31-2017 8:12 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 9 of 72 (816184)
07-31-2017 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by CRR
07-31-2017 8:12 AM


... sudden large scale change?
... The isolated population has to ... appears as a sudden large scale change ...
What is "large scale change?"
When I was exploring horse evolution on the Dogs will be Dogs will be ??? I did not see any specific change I would call "large scale" ... just the variations seen in dogs ... (further discussion on this concept should probably be best done on that thread).
In punk-eek the new species appears in the fossil record, but there are obvious multiple homologies with older fossils found in the same geographical location, showing a clear path of lineage, and no radical change (nothing beyond what we see in the variations of dogs).
So what is "large scale change?"
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by CRR, posted 07-31-2017 8:12 AM CRR has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 72 (816229)
08-01-2017 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by CRR
07-31-2017 7:20 PM


... developed to explain large morphological gaps in the fossil record, ...
What is a "large morphological gap?"
Message 9:
... The isolated population has to ... appears as a sudden large scale change ...
What is "large scale change?"
In punk-eek the new species appears in the fossil record, but there are obvious multiple homologies with older fossils found in the same geographical location, showing a clear path of lineage, and no radical change (nothing beyond what we see in the variations of dogs).
So what is "large scale change?"
So what is a "large morphological gap?"
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CRR, posted 07-31-2017 7:20 PM CRR has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 72 (816276)
08-02-2017 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by CRR
08-02-2017 6:33 AM


Re: Terminology
and again
"The PE model was developed to explain large morphological gaps
what are "large morphological gaps?"
Message 15:
... developed to explain large morphological gaps in the fossil record, ...
What is a "large morphological gap?"
Message 9:
... The isolated population has to ... appears as a sudden large scale change ...
What is "large scale change?"
In punk-eek the new species appears in the fossil record, but there are obvious multiple homologies with older fossils found in the same geographical location, showing a clear path of lineage, and no radical change (nothing beyond what we see in the variations of dogs).
So what is "large scale change?"
So what is a "large morphological gap?"
So, again, what is a "large morphological gap?"
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by CRR, posted 08-02-2017 6:33 AM CRR has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 64 of 72 (843696)
11-20-2018 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dredge
11-20-2018 7:59 AM


A theory that can't be tested seems pretty useless.
Which is why creationism is useless pseudoscience.
Curiously the theory of PE has been tested (see above re snails, also see Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium.
Another thing to look at is the geographical-temporal (space-time) matrix the fossils are embedded in and their relationship to sister populations (see Alfred Russel Wallace and Biogeography):
quote:
The following law may be deduced from these facts:--Every species has come into existence coincident both in space and time with a pre-existing closely allied species.
This is known as Wallace's "Law of Sarawak" and it precedes Darwin's book.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dredge, posted 11-20-2018 7:59 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dredge, posted 11-21-2018 6:45 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 66 of 72 (843763)
11-21-2018 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dredge
11-21-2018 6:45 AM


Which are you?
I would imagine a study of what happens within a species is hardly a valid test of PE.
Except that PE is specifically about what happens in a species. I also note that you ignored the thread Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium which documents several cases of rapid dispersal of introduced species into a new (to them) ecology.
Starlings, for instance, are now ubiquitous in the US after a small flock was introduced in the 1890's. This would appear in a fossil record as instantaneous (geological time).
A theory based on fossil evidence is a "test" for another theory based on fossils (PE)? I don't think so.
after Dawkins' "ignorance is no crime":
I have been giving this a bit a thought and would like to break it down slightly differently:
Five types of people that don't understand how evolution/biology/science work:
  1. people too stupid to understand the concepts. These are the unfortunates. It is not their fault.
  2. people ignorant of the concepts, possibly through no fault of their own. These are the fortunates -- they can be cured via education. A good starting source is Berkeley: Evolution 101.
  3. people that have been misinformed. These are the deceived. It may be possible to cure them with education, however the victims need to be willing to learn, and willing to give up the false concepts they have regarding how evolution/biology/science work. Cognitive dissonance comes into play here when this affects core beliefs that are strongly held.
  4. people who are charlatans. These are the people that do the deceiving of others. These are the deplorables. They too can be deceived (and likely deceive themselves), however they continue to present falsehoods even when they have been corrected. Trolls also fit in this category.
  5. people who are clinically insane. These are also unfortunates, as it is not their fault.
Rejecting information does not refute it, that just puts you in one of the 5 categories above.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Dredge, posted 11-21-2018 6:45 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2018 9:11 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 70 by Dredge, posted 11-28-2018 1:45 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 68 of 72 (843774)
11-21-2018 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Tangle
11-21-2018 9:11 AM


Re: Which are you?
6. Bubble people, those that have a strongly held belief that makes it impossible for them to accept an idea that contradicts it. Such information just bounces off the bubble.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2018 9:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2018 1:55 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 72 of 72 (844361)
11-28-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Dredge
11-28-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Which are you?
Really? So Gould and Eldredge invented PE to explain gaps within a species? My understanding is they invented it to explain all those gaps in the fossil record.
All evolution occurs at the species level because that's where the breeding populations interact with the ecological challenges.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Dredge, posted 11-28-2018 1:45 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024