|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Punctuated Equilibria: The Basics | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1798 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
If speciation occurs rapidly in a limited area we will only observe it in the fossil record if we have a very good record for that exact time and place (which is limited by our explorations, as well as by the limits of the record itself). While we have such records for some times and places they are more the exception than the rule. The other phase of punk-eek as I understand it, is that once this new species has evolved it expands outside its "incubation" habitat, and pushes into the areas inhabited by the parent population, displacing it. In the fossil record this looks like one species being replaced by a different one, with no intermediates at this species level. Creationists like to point to this as evidence of special creation of new species. For an idea of how a small initial population could spread into other habitats see Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium. This takes several species that were introduced into North America with small initial populations and looks at their survival.
quote: While these examples are all birds and thus able to disperse widely fairly rapidly, the same process would hold for other organisms, with the rapidity of the dispersal dependent on their mobility. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1798 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
... The isolated population has to ... appears as a sudden large scale change ... What is "large scale change?" When I was exploring horse evolution on the Dogs will be Dogs will be ??? I did not see any specific change I would call "large scale" ... just the variations seen in dogs ... (further discussion on this concept should probably be best done on that thread). In punk-eek the new species appears in the fossil record, but there are obvious multiple homologies with older fossils found in the same geographical location, showing a clear path of lineage, and no radical change (nothing beyond what we see in the variations of dogs). So what is "large scale change?" Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1798 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... developed to explain large morphological gaps in the fossil record, ... What is a "large morphological gap?"
Message 9: ... The isolated population has to ... appears as a sudden large scale change ... What is "large scale change?" In punk-eek the new species appears in the fossil record, but there are obvious multiple homologies with older fossils found in the same geographical location, showing a clear path of lineage, and no radical change (nothing beyond what we see in the variations of dogs). So what is "large scale change?" So what is a "large morphological gap?" Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1798 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
and again
"The PE model was developed to explain large morphological gaps what are "large morphological gaps?"
Message 15: ... developed to explain large morphological gaps in the fossil record, ... What is a "large morphological gap?"
Message 9: ... The isolated population has to ... appears as a sudden large scale change ... What is "large scale change?" In punk-eek the new species appears in the fossil record, but there are obvious multiple homologies with older fossils found in the same geographical location, showing a clear path of lineage, and no radical change (nothing beyond what we see in the variations of dogs). So what is "large scale change?" So what is a "large morphological gap?" So, again, what is a "large morphological gap?" Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1798 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
A theory that can't be tested seems pretty useless. Which is why creationism is useless pseudoscience. Curiously the theory of PE has been tested (see above re snails, also see Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium. Another thing to look at is the geographical-temporal (space-time) matrix the fossils are embedded in and their relationship to sister populations (see Alfred Russel Wallace and Biogeography):
quote: This is known as Wallace's "Law of Sarawak" and it precedes Darwin's book. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1798 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
I would imagine a study of what happens within a species is hardly a valid test of PE. Except that PE is specifically about what happens in a species. I also note that you ignored the thread Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium which documents several cases of rapid dispersal of introduced species into a new (to them) ecology. Starlings, for instance, are now ubiquitous in the US after a small flock was introduced in the 1890's. This would appear in a fossil record as instantaneous (geological time).
A theory based on fossil evidence is a "test" for another theory based on fossils (PE)? I don't think so. after Dawkins' "ignorance is no crime": I have been giving this a bit a thought and would like to break it down slightly differently: Five types of people that don't understand how evolution/biology/science work:
Rejecting information does not refute it, that just puts you in one of the 5 categories above. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1798 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
6. Bubble people, those that have a strongly held belief that makes it impossible for them to accept an idea that contradicts it. Such information just bounces off the bubble.
Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1798 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Really? So Gould and Eldredge invented PE to explain gaps within a species? My understanding is they invented it to explain all those gaps in the fossil record. All evolution occurs at the species level because that's where the breeding populations interact with the ecological challenges. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2025