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Author Topic:   The God Of Sex
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 63 (840868)
10-04-2018 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Genomicus
10-04-2018 11:27 PM


Re: correction of fact
Are you familiar with the story?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Genomicus, posted 10-04-2018 11:27 PM Genomicus has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 63 (840870)
10-04-2018 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by DrJones*
10-04-2018 11:34 PM


Re: correction of fact
So because her prospects and safety were destroyed she's sentenced to be the captive of the man who did the destroying? Again why would you assume a rapist, who's already violated social norms would suddenly turn out to be a good husband?
We're all sinners. If he raped her out of passion rather than hatred or love of dominance he might treat her well to make up for it. Yes it sounds ridiculously unfair to us but the law clearly aimed to do right by the woman whether it makes sense to us or not; that's why it's necessary to try to understand just how different things were in those days. Women really had NO choice whatever so they were dependent on providence and the good will of others for their well being. They didn't have much say in who they married, it was negotiated by parents and the man who wanted them, so even being forced to marry a man who raped them could be felt as a blessing. Assuming, anyway, as I do, that he was driven by passion rather than a violent or misogynistic nature.
ABE: Of course rape is bad but you are so culture-bound you can't see how different it was from what it is now, so you can't even see that the law that required the rapist to marry her was intended for her good in a bad situation in a culture where she had no better options, and even in some cases a very good thing since she couldn't choose her husband anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by DrJones*, posted 10-04-2018 11:34 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by DrJones*, posted 10-05-2018 12:00 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 39 of 63 (840873)
10-05-2018 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by DrJones*
10-05-2018 12:00 AM


Re: correction of fact
Rape is violence, again I shouldn't have to be explaining this to you.
OK, since you insist, but in that sort of society everything that happens to a woman could even be considered a form of violence since she is absolutely deprived of choice about anything that matters.
Yes it sounds ridiculously unfair to us but the law clearly aimed to do right by the woman whether it makes sense to us or not;
how is making her the captive of her rapist doing right by her?
I thought I'd explained this over and over by now. Nobody else would marry her after she was raped and there were no other options in such a society. She might even be subjected to further violence, but certainly the stigma would make her an outcast. ABE: AND again, I think you are imposing a modern idea of rapists on the situation and she might in fact be treated well by her husband.
Of course rape is bad but you are so culture-bound you can't see how different it was from what it is now
why do you rail against homosexuality (amongst other things)?
I do not rail against homosexuality, I defy you to find one quote from me railing against homosexuality.
you're so culture bound to view it as a bad thing when in a thousand years God'll think it's no big deal.
God does not change. God defines sin, not the culture. He defines homosexual acts as sin. I do not rail against anybody's sins. Ever.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 63 (840885)
10-05-2018 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Genomicus
10-05-2018 3:10 AM


Re: correction of fact
I don't think I claimed that the Mosaic laws were appreciably better than Hammurabi's did I? I would expect they would be but I haven't made the comparison and I'm aware that there are many similarities. When you say it didn't give "substantially more" protection, however, I do wonder if you are admitting it did give SOME greater protection.
Of course laws in a nation that isn't as strictly patriarchal as those of that time would be different. But I'd like to see you invent a law that would change the patriarchal form of the society itself. Good luck with that. Laws are designed to make the best of the cultural situation they govern.
Also, good luck finding a nonpatriarchal society before very modern times anyway. It's the form culture and government took as a result of the curse of the Fall, women being made subject to men. It is really only because of Christ that there is any lessening of that curse in the world today and in some places it's still horrifically bad.
Just as an aside, on the point that laws are designed to fit the culture, I'm reminded of Franklin's answer to an inquirer about the form of government they had given us, "A Republic, if you can keep it." There are no guarantees. And John Adams described that Constitutional government they gave us as fit "only for the government of a moral and religious people; it is entirely inadequate for the government of any other." Which of course leads me to speculate that since we've clearly gone beyond being a moral and religious people in the sense he meant it, and the republican form of government itself may not be keepable by our sort today, we're probably due for an oppressive tyrant. No I don't think Trump qualifies but I'm sure one will show up as needed. Probably on a global scale. A "vicious patriarchy" might even be preferable in that context. If Christ's influence is lost, as it has been in recent decades. there's nothing to stop a reversion to the conditions of the Fall. We've got human trafficking on an immense scale these days just as one sign of that trend.
I
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Paboss, posted 10-13-2018 3:28 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 63 (841453)
10-13-2018 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Paboss
10-13-2018 3:28 AM


Re: correction of fact
God always works within the existing culture, and as far as I know He didn't ask you how He should craft His laws. And I see no obsession.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Paboss, posted 10-13-2018 3:28 AM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Straggler, posted 10-13-2018 4:29 AM Faith has replied
 Message 46 by Paboss, posted 10-13-2018 5:21 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 63 (841455)
10-13-2018 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Straggler
10-13-2018 4:29 AM


Re: correction of fact
It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for some to turn an innocent truth, such as pointing to God's wisdom in not giving people more than they can handle, into something evil. It really is astonishing.
I don't even get the question about rape being a sinful act. How could there be such a question at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 44 by Straggler, posted 10-13-2018 4:29 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Straggler, posted 10-13-2018 6:49 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 63 (841469)
10-13-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Straggler
10-13-2018 6:49 AM


Re: correction of fact
The Bible punishes the rapist by death, or requires him to marry her and take care of her for the rest of her life, which has been discussed a great deal here. In the second case if the law put him to death it would leave the woman without any prospect of ever marrying, and bearing the stigma of the rape for the rest of her life. In the first case she was betrothed and her intended would marry her so the rapist would be put to death.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 49 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:14 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 50 of 63 (841471)
10-13-2018 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Paboss
10-13-2018 5:21 AM


sexual freedom?
God always works within the existing culture.
Then he won't have any issue with the sexual freedom we enjoy today.
What that means is that He doesn't impose strictures that are beyond what the people can bear and in a patriarchal society which devalues women He will challenge it as far as to put the rapist to death or require him to marry the woman. He can't very well require the whole culture to change and treat her as a modern culture would, but He can be sure she is cared for and protected.
He isn't writing laws for today, it's our job to use His Law as a standard for our laws. Which should certainly be understood to indicate that He will punish us for our so-called "sexual freedom," for the broken homes and the hurt spouses due to the adulteries, for the children without one or the other parent due to the irresponsible fornications, and also for the consequent economic deprivation. And of course for the enormous abortion rate which is a direct consequence of it all.
At least.
and as far as I know He didn't ask you how He should craft His laws.
No, He actually did. I told him: "Just don't be an asshole", but he thought I meant homosexuality was wrong. I guess it's my bad. Look, all I'm trying to say is if we are his creatures, even after the fall he would have made us capable of at least perceiving a little glance of goodness in those ancient laws. After all, he wants to teach us his good ways and save us all, does he not? But no, what we find in the biblical laws we are considering here is just plain disgusting.
Not to some of us who see His laws and His punishments as expressions of His goodness to us in protecting us against our own fallen selfish stupidities. King David wrote the psalm that says "Oh how I love thy Law" (and King David was a big sinner too) and although you obviously have no appreciation of it, some of us do, even many of us who used to think the idiotic way you do. His Law is deep wisdom and, to anyone who can understand it, deep love and mercy too.
And I see no obsession. But Abrahamic religions are obsessed with sexual freedom. I guess is just the need to control every aspect of human culture so that we preserve the status quo.
I myself was surprised to come to appreciate how much of human sin is related to sexuality, but as I say above I also came to appreciate how laws controlling it are a necessary and merciful curb on a society-destroying power when exercised without responsibility or restraint.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Paboss, posted 10-13-2018 5:21 AM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Paboss, posted 10-13-2018 11:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 63 (841472)
10-13-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
10-13-2018 1:14 PM


Re: correction of fact
Yes it is about the society of the time, which is of course the immediate context for which the Law was written. We have to adapt it to our own different situation.
But I think you are being rather short-sighted if you don't recognize just how recently our own societies stigmatized the victim of rape or other kinds of abuse and misfortune, and certainly had no merciful agencies in place to help them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 49 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 63 (841474)
10-13-2018 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
10-13-2018 1:38 PM


Re: correction of fact
The principles of both justice and mercy are well expressed in God's Law. It is fallen nature that causes all the injustice and mercilessness in any society. Of course some laws are going to seem that way to you but they aren't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 52 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:55 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 63 (841476)
10-13-2018 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
10-13-2018 1:55 PM


Re: correction of fact
There is really no such thing as a "secular" body of thought though, that is not ultimately derived from God's Law, or at least some version of biblical principles no matter how understood or misunderstood, OR a combination of those with the basic fallen enmity to everything of God -- just because we were once steeped in Christianity. It's all borrowed and in some cases distorted though in some cases helpful against former excesses of fallenness. If Christ had not come and influenced the development of the west you can be sure we would still be a bunch of warring patriarchal tribes.
Marxism is a distortion of Biblical principles. It leads to extreme injustice and murder because it requires enforcement by power rather than persuasion or reason. Milder forms of socialism may embody mercy up to a point but they too are rationalized on Biblical principles, also mot fully understood but interestingly often used against the true principles of God's law. Analyzing the complexities of how God's principles and human fallenness have interacted is beyond my abilities but it certainly is a complex matter and getting it all right is no doubt simply beyond us.
In any case law is only needed in a fallen world and at the moment fallenness seems to be dominating and law can barely keep up in my judgment. At some point such a system may simply collapse. And then we'll go back to societies dominated by tough guys who may or may not care about anything but their own power.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 54 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:55 PM ringo has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 58 of 63 (841504)
10-14-2018 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Paboss
10-13-2018 11:17 PM


Re: sexual freedom?
Gosh, "sexual repression." That one was really really big in the sixties. Wilhelm Reich and company. And of course in the twenties with Freud.
Whatever shreds of truth there might be to the idea for some people, there is nothing in God's Law that promotes it. All such ills society promotes are due to the fallen nature. We just can't get it right.
I don't think we need any explanation for sexual sin. We're fallen creatures who gravitate to sin like moths to flame and we also have the dear devil to help us out if we lag a bit. But the difference between now and when supposedly "sexual repression" reigned is that we now give legal license to "sexual freedom" so that it isn't just the occasional problem but the whole society is taking on water as it were and close to sinking from it.
Oh rave on, you'll fall into your own pit eventually.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Paboss, posted 10-13-2018 11:17 PM Paboss has replied

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 Message 59 by Paboss, posted 10-16-2018 4:28 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 63 (841597)
10-16-2018 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Paboss
10-16-2018 4:28 AM


Re: sexual freedom?
I may rave on, like you say, but I also ask questions. And my question for you is what a homosexual Christian is supposed to do.
The same thing an adulterous Christian is supposed to do, or an alcoholic Christian or any Christian with a strong bent toward a particular sin: repent of it, yes pray for strength to give it up, give it up. There is nothing else you can do with sin but mortify it. It's hard, and especially hard if it's been indulged over some time, even if only in fantasy. Very very hard. I wouldn't want to minimize the struggle because I know it would hurt a lot. But a truly serious Christian HAS to give up sin, no matter how hard it is, and you have the help of God Himself to do it. "You haven't yet resisted sin to the shedding of blood" it says in Hebrews 12:4. We are to fight sin to that extent.
I'll agree that homosexual feelings are probably about the hardest sin to mortify, but on the other hand some people are plagued by inappropriate heterosexual fantasies they can't give up, or other kinds of cravings, some are addicted to pornography, so even while I'm saying this I'm not sure of it completely. If a person is really a Christian though, it should be understood that homosexual sin is like all the rest, Jesus doesn't heap on the social stigmas, society does that, and He offers refuge from them. If society weren't whipping us up via the "sexual freedom" movement, to indulge these things in the first place, there might not be as much of a struggle.
If you believe all that hooha you wrote about how religions "evolved" there's no point in asking about Christianity anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Paboss, posted 10-16-2018 4:28 AM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by 1.61803, posted 10-17-2018 4:03 PM Faith has not replied
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 Message 63 by Paboss, posted 10-18-2018 5:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
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