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Author Topic:   Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 326 of 364 (836257)
07-13-2018 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
07-13-2018 9:26 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Jar writes:
But that is a claim I have never made; rather my belief is te belief I hold.
I was speaking of 'you' in general, not you in particular.
And as I pointed out there are many, likely the majority of religions, that do not hold a belief that they have the "true God".
And I would say that you have that particular belief because you were born at the time that it was allowable, in a society that has developed to become liberal and diverse and to parents who had similar values and beliefs. Had you been born 500 years ago or 10 years ago in Afghanistan to Muslim parents you are highly unlikely to believe what you believe now.
I'm not restricting this the religious believers, I certainly would not have been an atheist 500 years ago either.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 9:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 11:49 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 07-13-2018 11:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 331 of 364 (836265)
07-13-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
07-13-2018 11:50 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
The fact that statistically speaking people tend to identify with the religion of the culture they were born in SAYS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about which religion is true, certainly doesn't preclude one of them being true.
As I keep saying, it tells you that the belief you have was a throw of the dice. If the belief you hold by chance happens to be the 'truth', then you simply got lucky. If Islam is the 'truth', then you lucked out didn't you?
And I chose Christianity not because I was born in a Christian culture, which ought to be clear from what I keep saying about that, but BECAUSE ALL THE READING I WAS DOING ABOUT RELIGION CONVINCED ME IT IS THE TRUTH. TRUTH. TRUE TRUTH. TRUTHY TRUTH. I did NOT chose it because I liked it because there was a lot about it I didn't like at all at first. But its truth credentials did the job of convincing me that I had to yield my own freelings because it's TRUE.
It's just a fluke then that your parents were Christians living in a Christian society and you were brought up a Christian. You think that has no relevance at all? Do you also think that you'd be a Christian if you'd been born in North Africa? Even funnier, had you been born in Italy you'd like as not be a Catholic.
Your 'choice' of religion is only possible because you were born in recent times in a modern, diverse, democratic country that enables such choices. In a different time in a different place that choice would not exist nor would you even think of it.
What you believe is determined by almost everything but your own choice - it's highly predictable.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 07-13-2018 11:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Faith, posted 07-13-2018 12:16 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 333 of 364 (836267)
07-13-2018 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by jar
07-13-2018 11:49 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
jar writes:
Again, you are ignoring all the vast body that refutes your position, of watching normal Buddhists or Muslims or Hindus of India 100-200 years ago that stopped and prayed at every shrine along the Grand Trunk regardless of what God or Religion the shrine was dedicated to. You are ignoring the Taoist traditions that redily adopted and recognized most any religion; of the Native American "powwows" where different tribes gathered and told their own tales of religion and origins and the other nations paying attention and saying "that's interesting"; of the modern Ecumenical Movement, of the Romanization of the Greek religions as well as the Christian practice of adopting and re-purposing most any celebration from Christmas to Easter to Passover to Pentecost.
And yet they were still Buddists and Toists and Muslims and Hindus and Christians and believe what they believe.
Religions have never been monolithic and have all evolved and changed over time.
Religions are what mankind makes them. Some change some don't.
But it's irrelevant to the point. Almost exclusively you will believe what your society/parents/time believes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 11:49 AM jar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 338 of 364 (836276)
07-13-2018 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Faith
07-13-2018 1:07 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
Well if you don't know it's happening then allow me to suggest that you are swimming in confirmation bias with every word you utter, and so is everybody else here. Why pick on me because I'm a Christian? Bevcause of YOUR confirmation bias. None of you has yet szaid one true thing about this subject. Bunch of prejudiced know-nothings.
Everybody has confirmation bias and predudices. But some have at least attempted to minimise their effects. Science is specifically designed to reduce bias to as low a point as is possible. But you regularly and openly admit to extreme bias. You say that when a fact contradicts your beliefs, it's the fact that is wrong.
There's no worse/better example. Your thinking is motivated towards your belief.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Faith, posted 07-13-2018 1:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Faith, posted 07-13-2018 2:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 343 of 364 (836284)
07-13-2018 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Faith
07-13-2018 2:27 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
Yes, in my mid to late forties I learned the Truth and where anything contradicts it I know it is wrong. Before I learned the Truth I believed all the same false stuff you all believe about evolution.
You've pleaded guilty, I rest my case

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Faith, posted 07-13-2018 2:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 355 of 364 (849580)
03-15-2019 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by mike the wiz
03-15-2019 8:45 AM


MtW writes:
So my request is that I compare Jesus Christ to other historical figures such as Ghandi or Caesar rather than playing the infantile game of the atheist by comparing God to invisible, pink unicorns and Santa.
I suggest you start by comparing Jesus Christ to other figures that people have invested with equal beliefs and equal historicity (ie little to none.)
The prophet Mohammed
Lord Brahma
Krishna
Buddha
Etc (long list)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by mike the wiz, posted 03-15-2019 8:45 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by mike the wiz, posted 03-15-2019 9:54 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 359 of 364 (849589)
03-15-2019 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by mike the wiz
03-15-2019 9:54 AM


MtW writes:
Of course this is only the beginning of the comparison game Tangle, I would have to write a lot, lot more to reveal the full extent of my thoughts on this matter, though I definitely believe your thoughts on this matter are paper thin.
Let's start at the end. This arrogance of yours that only you have thought about this and have the intellect to get the right answers really gets in the way of adult discussion. You're not at Fairy Tales of Creation now, you're talking to people who have been deliberating this for years and heard every possible creationist argument many times.
No I think I'll stick to a far clever method of using a fair comparison. If we treat the Lord God of the bible and Jesus Christ as, "unknown if He is God", then yes to some extent it is okay to say, "these other people claim to be God too", but obviously it takes a lot of digging to compare all of the things the bible says to the claims made from other religions.
Well this is confusing, just a minute ago you were complaining that it's unfair - and presumably not 'clever' - to compare Jesus and/or God with Santa etc as we all know he doesn't exist. When I offer you properly equivalent beings, you complain again.
I'm not impressed with a rejection of the comparison just because it would take more work. Poor work, must try harder.
That is because they disingenuously PRETEND there is a comparison to be made, simple to mock God.
Just so you know and therefore can't claim not to later when you repeat this nonsense (which you will), from the atheist's viewpoint, there is no difference in a belief in god and a belief in Santa. We are not mocking god, because he's a fictional character, if we're mocking anyone, it's the holder of the belief - though mostly we hold back, like we do with children's Santa belief.
But I'm with you on your claim that it's not a true comparison, because we all agree that Santa is a human fiction. That's why I've given a real comparison.
So we must start with the question, is God there? If there is an argument God is there, and God is a personal God we can then ask more questions before we get to the comparison stage.
Well that's a waste of time isn't it? You believe in a God, Others believe in different one. You both agree there's a God so just get on with the comparison. I'm keen to watch.
Well, the answer is that the bible is a unique book as it is compiled over centuries and has the most powerful message of love in the gospel. Arguably this is more powerful than many other religions hence it is top of the best seller and the most influential to the world historically.
O dear. There are older religious books than yours and one of yours is older and belongs to the Jews. Are you seriously using the Amazon selling list as a proof of your particular god? Really? I think you need remind yourself of all those logical fallacies you're always so confused about.
Question: If God is intelligent and is not the Lord God of the bible but is Thor or Allah or Buddha, then why even allow the bible to exist to then let those other religions pale by comparison?
Because he doesn't exist. And...
... if God is intelligent and is the Lord God of the bible and not Thor or Allah or Buddha, then why even allow their books to exist to then let those other religions pale by comparison?
... works just as well.
Conclusion: We can very quickly rule out any personal God outside of the bible because being retarded doesn't match the level of intelligence we see in life.
As you can see a bad argument is just a bad argument - your domplaint works with any god you choose.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by mike the wiz, posted 03-15-2019 9:54 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 364 of 364 (849728)
03-19-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by DrJones*
03-19-2019 12:45 PM


Re: Wiz Kid
And some that are smart are rendered idiotic by their beliefs.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by DrJones*, posted 03-19-2019 12:45 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
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