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Author Topic:   Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 286 of 364 (836123)
07-10-2018 4:41 PM


Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
ringo,in another thread writes:
You're not seeking "The God Who Is". You're seeking "The God Who Has a Son Named Jesus". And you're not really seeking Him either. You think you've found Him.
True, though I maintain that he found me. There is no reason to think that any other candidate qualifies...largely because the One Who has a Son named Jesus is the only One who is able to relate. I don't see the spaghetti monster banging on the door to my soul.
ringo writes:
Why did you just happen to be born into the one society on earth that believes in the One True God? Why isn't it more likely that your God is no truer than the others?
Because life does not follow some mathematical averaging formula always.
ringo writes:
We all have the same facts.
Not subjectively. You have experienced things that affect your belief and value system that I never experienced. And visa-versa.
ringo writes:
The difference is that you choose to ignore the facts that don't fit your beliefs and to augment the facts with fiction.
That's what we are debating. Which are fiction and which are not. I have shown an example of how well-known mythos advocate Richard Carrier was challenged on his not so obvious logic. What seems obvious is often anything but.
ringo writes:
Maybe it's time for you to rise, take up thy bed and walk.
I'm not waiting around for an easy answer, if that's what you mean. I'm just challenging why some of you think that the facts are all in.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2018 5:00 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 289 by ringo, posted 07-10-2018 10:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 323 of 364 (836253)
07-13-2018 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by jar
07-13-2018 8:04 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
This discussion is quite interesting, jar. You and I and Faith and others here at EvC often discuss the Gods we market ad nauseum. You frame the issue by correctly pointing out how there are many different portrayals of the "God of the Bible" yet you never interject your personal idea of God into the discussion at all---which is why we other club members often cannot understand how you can be so dispassionate and yet claim club membership.
Before I go on, read this commentary by a *gasp* apologist from Columbia University:
Daniel Janosik, Apologist from Columbia University writes:
Is Allah of Islam the same as Yahweh of Christianity?
As I was passing the State House in Columbia, SC, I noticed the Confederate flag waving in the breeze behind a large, decorated Christmas tree. The contrast of symbols caught my attention. To most people, the tree nominally symbolizes the season of Christmas and the focus on the first coming of Jesus Christ. For some people any representation of a spiritual reality on public property is a travesty against their rights. The flag, however, has become more controversial. For some, the Confederate flag merely symbolizes a past conflict, for others it represents a spirit of independence and state’s rights, and for still others it is an ugly reminder of when one people group enslaved another. Thus, we have one symbol with several different meanings.
Phat writes:
One question is this: Are we talking about our personal individual ideas about God or are we talking about what our religion teaches?
This is similar to the word Allah. For most Muslims, Allah is the only God and therefore must be the same God as the one that the Jews and Christians worship. Similarly, for some Christians, Allah is just another name for the one God of the universe. For others, however, the Muslim Allah and the biblical Yahweh are contradictory and cannot refer to the same being, for, they say, how can the God of Muhammad be the Father of Jesus Christ? The question before us, then, is whether the terms Allah and Yahweh are just two names for the same God, or are they referring to different Gods? (And since there can only be one true God, the ultimate question is, if they are different, which one is the true God?)
Let’s first look at the origin and meaning for the term Allah. Allah probably comes from the Aramaic compound term al-ilah, which means the god. It is a generic term for the highest god of the people, and in Arabia it was in use for centuries before Muhammad came on the scene. Apparently it was one of the 360 gods worshipped in the ka’aba in Mecca, and was the chief god for the Quraysh tribe, which was the tribe Muhammad belonged to. In the pre-Islamic time, Allah had three daughters, Al-At, Al-Uzza, and Al-Manat. In Muhammad’s campaign against polytheism he chose Allah as the one true God and rejected the notion that Allah could have any daughters or sons. The Allah from the Qur’an, however, is very different from the Yahweh of the Bible. For one thing, Allah is a distant, remote being who reveals his will but not himself. It is impossible to know him in a personal way. In his absolute oneness there is unity but not trinity, and because of this lack of relationship, love is not emphasized. Indeed, for the Muslim, Allah cannot have any associates. In fact, to claim that Jesus is God’s son is the greatest of all sins in Islam and is known as shirk. Allah is also an arbitrary God and is said to deceive people, especially unbelievers. In the end, even for the devout Muslim there is no guarantee of salvation because in his arbitrariness Allah may reject the believer’s good works and send him to hell. Thus, even if one’s good works outweighed his bad works salvation is ultimately up to the Will of Allah, which is arbitrary at best.
When we look at Yahweh, however, who is the God of the Bible, we see a different kind of deity. First of all, the name Yahweh comes from the time that God appeared to Moses in the burning bush. At that time God told Moses to call him I am that I am, or in Hebrew, Yahweh. It is significant that Jesus referred to himself as the I am in John 8:58. The Jews realized that Jesus was referring to himself as God and took up stones to stone him for what they believed was blasphemy. This link between Jesus in the New Testament and the burning bush in the Old Testament demonstrates the unity of the one God manifested to both the Jews and the Christians. This cannot be said of the Muslim God because Muslims reject the deity of Jesus and therefore reject much of what the New Testament says about Jesus. We also find that the Bible portrays Yahweh in contrast to Allah. For example, Allah is considered to be too holy to have personal relationships with man, but Yahweh is often described as a loving God interested in our personal struggles. Yahweh is also depicted as unchanging and One who assures the salvation of the faithful. Finally, because there is unity in the Trinity with the one God also being three persons, God can be described as the Father of Jesus.
Some scholars want to emphasize the similarities between Yahweh and Allah, and point to a common belief in a monotheistic God who is Creator of all things, omnipotent and merciful. Both religions also claim that God has sent prophets to reveal His will and produce scriptures to guide our lives. However, Allah and Yahweh cannot refer to the same person for the following reasons. First of all, their attributes are different. In Allah’s monadic oneness his attributes stem from his powerful Will which, because it provides no basis for relationship, often promotes capriciousness. Also, since his power is more important than his other attributes, there is an unequal emphasis on power over his other attributes. In the end, a follower cannot know God or even be sure of the consistency of his attributes. On the other hand, because Yahweh is by nature a triune unity his attributes stem from his nature. The eternal relationship within the Trinity promotes love within the Godhead and extends to his creation. Also, since his attributes are based on his unchanging nature rather than his powerful will, all his attributes are equal and promote trustworthiness rather than capriciousness. This means that believers can know God and be sure of his attributes. Second, Christians understand the nature of God to be triune (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), which is the only way that Jesus Christ, as the second person of the Trinity, could die on the cross to pay for our sins. If Jesus were not God himself, then his death on the cross would be meaningless. However, Muslims deny that Jesus died on the cross and they reject the belief in his resurrection from the dead. Only a triune God, defined as one essence and three persons, could become incarnate and still remain God of the universe, and yet this is the God that Muslims reject. For them, Jesus cannot be God nor can God be a Father, for he cannot have a son. Therefore, if Muslims reject God as the Father of Jesus, then Allah cannot be the same as the God of the Bible.
But wait a minute, some will say. What about the Arabic Christians who call the God of the Bible Allah? Doesn’t this illustrate the fact that Allah and Yahweh are referring to the same God? Actually, when the Arabic Christians refer to Allah in their translation of the Bible, they believe that Allah is the father of Jesus and they believe that Allah is triune. Therefore, the Allah of the Arabic Christians cannot be the same Allah of the Muslims! This semantic [shibboleth] strangulation can be cleared up if we remember that words have both a denotative and a connotative meaning. Denotation refers to a dictionary definition, so it would be correct to say that Yahweh and Allah both refer to the concept of God, especially for their respective language groups. However, the connotation is determined by what a person conceives about the object of that word. For example, an Arab Christian may still use the word Allah to denote God, but his understanding of that term would be starkly different from a Muslim, for the Christian would recognize that Jesus Christ is God (Allah) whereas the Muslim would never consider that connotation. Thus, denotatively the word allah merely refers to god, deity, etc. However, we understand the denotative use by our connotative presuppositions. Therefore, Allah for the Muslim cannot be reconciled with the Jesus is Allah of the Arabic Christians. There is still a world of difference between the content of the word (connotation), even if the denotation is the same. Without this very important distinction made when we refer to Allah and God (Yahweh), a lot of Christians will be confused.
After comparing the Allah of the Qur’an and the Yahweh of the Bible, it should be apparent that they could not be referring to the same God. Either the Muslim Allah is the true God or the Christian Yahweh is the true God, or neither is true. As the Law of non-Contradiction teaches, they both cannot be true. One thing should be sure, though, the God of Muhammad cannot be the Father of Jesus.
Basically this author does not differentiate the God of the Bible into many facets as you do...probably due to the a priori belief that Jesus unifies any discrepancies of said Deity.
There may be many "Gods of the Bible" but can we say the same about Jesus? Is there more than one Jesus and if so, what does this mean for Club Christian?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 8:04 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 07-13-2018 11:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 344 of 364 (849456)
03-10-2019 4:55 PM


dwise1 writes:
The benefit of working with spiritual questions is not confirming what you had started out believing in the first place (far from it!), but rather in how it leads you to grow spiritually. The goal is not to find answers, but rather in asking the right questions and then trying to work towards answers even though you can never actually find those answers.
To question is the answer.
Lets present 5 different possible Deities and the nature of each.
Ringo? You first.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by ringo, posted 03-10-2019 5:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 346 by dwise1, posted 03-10-2019 8:02 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 347 of 364 (849475)
03-11-2019 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by dwise1
03-10-2019 8:02 PM


Imagine A Deity. Write a Book About It.
dwise1 writes:
In other words, the gods we create tell us far more about ourselves than about those gods.
From a believers standpoint, the God I attempt to describe tells me more about my expectations, real or imagined relationship, and even my own belief as well as who He is. It also may shed light into whether or not I actually am making Him up or whether He becomes more real of an idea through definition.
So instead of "let's dream up some gods to discuss", why not ask more basic questions about the gods? Like what purpose they serve. What the gods we choose say about us. How we should think about the gods. How the gods should affect how we live our lives and treat one another. Even whether the gods should affect how we live our lives and treat one another.
Lets start with your questions and ringos.
ringo writes:
I would start with a "deity" that is in fact a race of deities, because I don't see any particular reason to limit them to one individual.
Naturally. The Mormons would be proud of you. It also could explain why seemingly different gods were described in the OT. Pehaps one was fired or replaced by the committee of the "god race".
ringo writes:
Their capabilities (technology) would be more advanced than ours but not necessarily by much.
Which would logically explain the stern yet "learning on the job" god(s) of early OT.
dwise1 writes:
why not ask more basic questions about the gods? Like what purpose they serve.
Fair enough. God as Moses describes him in Deuteronomy sounds like a stern patriarch oddly similar to Moses. Could we extrapolate that a god we make up today would serve a similar function in sociological moderation...sorta like a communal superego? Problem is, we voted to be so all-inclusive and politically correct that everyone gets to have their own god (or attitude) these days. There is no longer autocracy nor even a disciplined consensus. Or is there? Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by dwise1, posted 03-10-2019 8:02 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by dwise1, posted 03-11-2019 7:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 352 of 364 (849550)
03-14-2019 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by LamarkNewAge
03-14-2019 1:19 AM


Re: Can somebody adjust the formatting? I can't read the text on page 24
we should talk. are you comfortable with messenger (on facebook)?
check your private message folder
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-14-2019 1:19 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 360 of 364 (849591)
03-15-2019 12:37 PM


Topic Synopsis
As long as we are discussing objective vs subjective, comparison charts, and keeping it all in a vein of humor (reason being I wanted to playfully spar with ringo and jar when I first created this topic) allow me to catch up by reading your collective replies. First off, I don't take sides between atheists, humanists, creationists, or Martians(none of whom have been objectively encountered thus far)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 361 of 364 (849595)
03-15-2019 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by mike the wiz
03-15-2019 9:54 AM


A Wiz Of A Wiz Of A Wiz He Was
Mikie, how you been? Dont run away from this topic. I want to get a conversation going. As you know, I am a believer. I often spend time understanding how opponents of religion reason with their minds. Thus I will lay devils advocate from time to time in order to stimulate dialogue. Tanypteryx had a post in another thread where he provided this link to this story: Intelligent design gets even dumber, By Jerry A. Coyne.
Not to get too far off of my topic, which is intended to be semi-humorous yet semi persuasive. I enjoy debates with everyone, mostly. Glad to see you back for this topic, Mike. I work today so I will finish my thoughts later tonight.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by mike the wiz, posted 03-15-2019 9:54 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 362 of 364 (849726)
03-19-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by mike the wiz
03-15-2019 9:54 AM


Wiz Kid
MTW writes:
Of course this is only the beginning of the comparison game Tangle, I would have to write a lot, lot more to reveal the full extent of my thoughts on this matter, though I definitely believe your thoughts on this matter are paper thin.
I think that tangle makes some good points. His arguments are hardly paper thin. You have some good points also, Mike. Stay humble, though. None of us are any smarter or wiser than anyone else.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by mike the wiz, posted 03-15-2019 9:54 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by DrJones*, posted 03-19-2019 12:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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