Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 52 (9178 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: Anig
Upcoming Birthdays: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 918,097 Year: 5,354/9,624 Month: 379/323 Week: 19/204 Day: 19/21 Hour: 4/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 287 of 364 (836124)
07-10-2018 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Phat
07-10-2018 4:41 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Phat writes:
True, though I maintain that he found me. There is no reason to think that any other candidate qualifies...largely because the One Who has a Son named Jesus is the only One who is able to relate. I don't see the spaghetti monster banging on the door to my soul.
And GDR, any any of you other believers in your own personal variety of Christianity.
Can you please answer the question of why you have to live/be born in a Christian country/to Christian parents to be able to 'know' the 'One'?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 07-10-2018 4:41 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 07-10-2018 7:17 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:54 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 290 of 364 (836137)
07-11-2018 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
07-10-2018 7:17 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
Why do you keep saying that?
Because it's a total accident of birth whether you beliefe in Jesus, Buddah, Mohammed, turtles, ancestors or whatever. An accident Faith.
There are something like 33 million to 67 million Christians in China according to diferent estimates, etc
And the children of those converts will believe in Jesus. The rest will believe in some other god or none mostlty dependent on what their parents believe. It's purely random.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 07-10-2018 7:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:45 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 292 of 364 (836150)
07-11-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
07-11-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Is that supposed to mean something to me?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 294 of 364 (836154)
07-11-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Faith
07-11-2018 1:54 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
No other religion has anything even remotely like this.
Of course they have.
Does all that make it true? Not based on anything I could say, but I do believe that its authenticity is palpable to an honest reader.
Every religion says exactly the same. The one thing they all have in common is that pretty much all believers were born into societies that believed the same thing. No one ever spontaneously becomes a Mormon, or a Jew, or a Muslim. Your religion is pretty much what you are born into. It's as random or as predictable as that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 2:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 297 of 364 (836167)
07-11-2018 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
07-11-2018 2:55 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
No other religion is even remotely like biblical Christianity.
Judeism and Islam are very like Christianity. So is Mormonism.
But lots of religions are also very different to Christianity. So what? What you believe is overwhelmingly likely to be what your parents believe.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 2:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 4:13 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 299 of 364 (836183)
07-11-2018 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
07-11-2018 4:13 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
Judaism is, but only because they have the same Old Testament Bible, otherwise what they believe is not the same at all. Islam, no, nothing at all like Christianity, or Mormonism either.
There are commonalities between them all. But again, so what? The fact that Christianity has differences from other religions is not an argument that it's 'the one true religion'.
My parents didn't believe much of anything that I knew of. They sent their children to church
So you're parents were Christians and taught you Christianity. Sort of my point. The rest is irrelevant. Had you been born to poor parents in a remote part of the Atlas mountains you would have been a Muslim.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 4:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:43 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 302 by foreveryoung, posted 07-12-2018 9:14 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 301 of 364 (836197)
07-12-2018 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
07-12-2018 12:43 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
Of course you can rewrite my autobiography to suit yourself,
Which part of my statement that you were born to Christian parents and brought up a Christian is wrong?
and your idea of "commonalities" between the religions is groundless.
Right. There is no commonality between Judeism and Christianity except that they share the same god and the same book (the OT). No commonality between Islam and Christianity except that they share the same god and both honour Jesus.
Christianity is unique in the ways I said it is.
Christianity has points of difference from other religions and what Christians believe about what Chritianity is has just a many points of difference. There's light years between what you think Christianity is and what GDR thinks it is.
Christianity is unique in the ways I said it is.
Even if it was unique, it would tell us nothing about whether it's true or otherwise. In your terms Buddism is unique. Shintu is unique. Etc.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 303 of 364 (836203)
07-12-2018 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by foreveryoung
07-12-2018 9:14 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
foreveryoung writes:
All kinds of people send their kids to church.
Sure, but I've never heard of Christians sending their kids to synagogs or Jews to Muslim churches.
That doesnt mean they believe Christianity.
No, but it means that their child was born of Christian parents and that's why the child will become a Christian not a Muslim.
It means they want their children around people who they believe provide a good influence. They want the mores of the church people to rub off on their kids.
Yeh, but you're not following the argument are you? The point is that people believe in their god because they are born into families or societies that believe the same. They never ever believe in a god they have never heard of.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by foreveryoung, posted 07-12-2018 9:14 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 07-12-2018 10:02 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 319 by foreveryoung, posted 07-12-2018 11:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 305 of 364 (836205)
07-12-2018 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by jar
07-12-2018 10:02 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Jar writes:
Well, now you have. In addition many chapters of club Christian actually encourage members to explore other faiths and in the US National Cathedral both Jewish and Islamic as well as other faiths have performed services and present their religious perspectives.
Sure, many people attend many different churches occasionally, but I'll guess that you weren't sent exclusively to one and it was not the belief of your parents. And your default belief system remained Christianity I assume?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 07-12-2018 10:02 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by jar, posted 07-12-2018 12:30 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 309 of 364 (836211)
07-12-2018 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Faith
07-12-2018 12:22 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
I made a point of showing that my parents were not Christians, because they did not believe anything Christians are supposed to believe. They were raised more or less in a Christian society but if you judge by their beliefs they were simply heathens.
So your parents were Christians in a Christian society and brought you up a Christian. As I said.
THAT's the part of my autobiography you rewrote.
I not rewritten it, I've simply repeated what you told us. I also expect that your parents were baptised as Christians and thought of themselves as Christians, you regard virtually nobody as a Christian so that part of your assessment is moot.
GDR's beliefs go back no more than maybe 150 years to the "liberal" theologians. True Christianity goes back two millennia and though it was lost through the period when the Roman church dominated there were still always true believers and the Reformation recovered the truth that had been buried.
In your fundamentalist opinion. Billions of other Christians disagree with you.
But none of this is relevant to the point we're discussing. You and almost all other Christians are only Christian because you were born to Christian parents in a Christian society and brought up as a Christian. The same is true of all other regions. Belief is an accident of birth.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 314 of 364 (836218)
07-12-2018 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Faith
07-12-2018 12:36 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
Sorry, you have no idea what is involved in becoming a Christian
I was born to Christian parents, in a Christian society, baptised in a Christian church and sent to a religious school. I know exactly what is involved.
Being born in a Christian culture dores not make anyone a Christian.
Did anyone say it did? It must be possible to be born into an exclusively Christian society with Christian parents and not be baptised and brought up a Christian, but it's unlikely isn't it?
Thre is reason to believe that perhaps the majority of people in "Christian" churches are not Christians.
That's simply your perverted belief.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 4:32 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 317 of 364 (836234)
07-12-2018 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Faith
07-12-2018 4:32 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
This started with you saying that Phat is only a CHristian because he was raised in a Christian society,
Correct. Had he been born in a remote village in the Atlas mountains he would not be a Christian. Can you find ny fault at all with that logic?
Phat's belief is a lot deeper than any cultural Christian
It doesn't matter how deep his belief is, he only has it because he was born where he was born and to whom he was born.
You have not yet addressed this point.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 4:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 7:57 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 320 of 364 (836249)
07-13-2018 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Faith
07-12-2018 7:57 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:
Even if statistically you are right, what you conclude based on that statistic is false, which is that it proves there is nothing special about Christianity
How is it possible to be wrong? If it's true that where you are born and who you are born to almost exclusively determines which god you believe in, where is the error? Every religious belief works the same way.
You think there's something special about the particular version of a particular religion. I say that every believer in every religion thinks exactly the same. The only thing special about what you believe Faith is that it is more than usually bonkers.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 7:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 321 of 364 (836250)
07-13-2018 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by foreveryoung
07-12-2018 11:25 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
foreveryoung writes:
It does not mean the child was born of Christian parents. The USA used to be a country that was saturated in Christian influenced culture. There are many people who hold no religious beliefs at all but are not against the practice of Christianity. The reason they would not send their kids to a Jewish or Muslim church is because the USA is neither a Muslim or Jewish nation, or at least was thought of that way in the past. America was synonymous with Christian culture. The thinking was that only Arabs send their kids to Muslim church and the Jewish church was exclusively for the Jewish ethnic group and both were thought to be foreign to the American way.
If you sent your kid to a Christian Church, it was for morality and you don't get your morality from unamerican cultures. I'm just saying that was the thinking.
It certainly was not exclusively for wanting your kids to believe a faith you had.
There are people who like a culture that was born in Christian influence but do not believe in the Christian God or any God.
Well this is a muddle isn't it?
To stress the point, if a child is born to Muslim parents in remote Uzbekistan, what god do you think he'll believe in?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by foreveryoung, posted 07-12-2018 11:25 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 324 of 364 (836254)
07-13-2018 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by jar
07-13-2018 8:04 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Jar writes:
Yes, a local culture determines to a great degree what position members of that culture adopt
Thank you.
BUT the fact is that today many religions are not exclusive and do not hold the position that any one religion is the only true religion.
This is not true on average. What is true is that the increase ease of people movement means that more people are exposed to more cultures and beliefs. Mostly in the last hundred years or so and only in the wealthier parts. Prior to that it was usual for people never to leave their village and the village would be a mono-culture.
In the West in particular, religious belief has thankfully liberalised but this is not normal, in many parts of the world many religions still literally fight over their beliefs and partition their societies based on it. Even modern European countries like Northern Island and Yugoslavia.
Where you are born and the parents you are born to are the overwhelming determinants of what you believe yourself. There's no avoiding that point. It blows a hole three feet wide into any claim that your belief is the 'true belief' - your belief is a chance of birth. Even if your belief is the liberal one of accept all religions.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 8:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 9:26 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024