Summations Only

For me your posts are just not ringing true. They seem like misinformation and propaganda spread under the false guise of seeking information and engaging in discussion.This thread is about the Trump presidency, and separation of families is on Trump, not Obama. Immigration is just another manifestation of the truly horrible, misogynistic, racist, bigoted, egotistical, narcissistic, self-serving, conniving, lying, cheating, corrupt, dishonorable person that is Trump, who has no respect for our democratic institutions but considers them just instruments of his will. A person can like his positions on reducing the size of government and lower taxes and so forth, but that doesn't change the person that he is, and there are other conservatives with the same views who do not pose a threat to our democracy. I can respect supporting conservative policies. I cannot respect supporting Trump.I also cannot respect being anti-immigrant. Ours is a country of immigrants, built by immigrants, enriched by immigrants. My own family (on one side) emigrated from Czarist Russia in the late 1800's. I've been to Ellis Island, seen the registrations.Even decades and decades ago the US had already turned immigration into a complex labyrinth that creates many problems. Internment of Japanese Americans during WWII is a stain on our democracy (run by the military rather than immigration but a product of the same racism driving anti-immigration efforts today - we eventually apologized and paid reparations), as is our refusal to take in Jews in the years leading up to WWII. The whole H1B work visa process is a total fraud, I've been through it several times, it's another reason I got out of management. Some may want to discuss immigration issues here, but in this thread my only interest regarding immigration is in Trump's role in family separation.--Percy

In today's Washington Post: The Immigration Crisis is a Trump Hoax. Opening paragraphs:

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The hoax is the premise that President Trump’s administration has invented to rationalize such crimes against humanity: his narrative that America has been infest[ed] with hordes of crime-committing, culture-diluting, job-stealing, tax-shirking, benefits-draining aliens.

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No part of that description is remotely true. Yet the Trump administration seems to have successfully shifted the national dialogue away from Do we have a border immigration problem? to What’s the right way to fix our border immigration problem?

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--Percy

I think that I'm coming at my idea from the wrong side.
By talking about Trump and Obama, it seems to trigger some sort of political identity.I don't really care about Obama vs. Trump.
What I was attempting to get at was that different times, with different circumstances, can cause different issues and different solutions could be viable.
I tried to use real-life examples but I think things got too focused on the real-life part of it, and not the example part.Let me try another angle.Let's pretend we have a pretend country - Fakesville.
We are the dictator of Fakesville.Fakesville has a border. What do we do?
-Maybe we let people freely cross in and join our country. Why not? We're people - they're people - we have police and such to take care of bad people. Why not let people in?Then, maybe, Fakesville starts having issues supporting too many people. Perhaps a lack of resources, perhaps too much crime... whatever... Now what?
Well, it makes sense that if we can't support the people we have, then we shouldn't be letting in more people, right?So what to do at the border?Do we turn people away?
What if they don't leave?What if people show up with families?
How do we deal with that? Do we separate them or jail the kids with the adults?
How about neither? What if we let them in anyway and give them a court date?
What if they don't show for the court date? What if the kids were just used to abuse the "get across the border" loophole and are stranded by the adults after crossing?I'm trying to show that border policies are not something that should be static.
They should change. Depending on the country's ability to accept immigrants and depending on the country's morality to deal with children at the border compared with how children are being treated within the country. In such a limited scope, I certainly agree that Trump's role in creating more "illegals" and therefore creating more family-separations is foolish and stupid.
And, since it's Trump, there are many possibilities on why/how this happened. I would guess that Trump was swayed by someone's argument that more people crossing the border should be identified as "illegal" and therefore prevented from entering the country. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump didn't investigate or think about his choice and see that it would lead to such family-separations. Because Trump's a fool. I still think he's entirely responsible, and stupid, for making these immigration moves. He simply shouldn't be in charge of a hot-dog stand let alone a massive, powerful country.But because it is such an intertwined and large issue that affects so much... I don't think it's really fair to limit things down to Trump and family separation. If you want to identify Trump as an idiot... there's much more objective and simple things that would do that.Especially since there could be good reasons to separate families.Like, in Fakesville, let's say we have:
-an extreme limit on resources within the country
-people already in the country are fighting and hurting each other (even killing) themselves and families and children over these resource/poverty issues.
-some criminals want into the country because it happens to have lots of drugs and other criminal activities where they can still profit.
-letting people into the country will only add to these terrible problems
-therefore, need to prevent (or at least limit) entries into the country
-if certain people are prevented, and they won't leave, and they have children - what should Fakesville do with them?
-can't let them in, it will only add more resource/poverty issues to the people already there - high risk of causing harm to existing people as well as those
entering.
-can't refuse them as they won't go away - they just keep walking in/moving forward
-can try to punish them by jailing them to serve as a warning so hopefully they (and others) stop trying
-should children be jailed with parents? -this has it's own issues
-what else to do with the children then other than to separate them?In this Fakesville example, we can see that "separation of families" in and of itself might be the best option of a bunch of bad options given a boatload of extenuating circumstances.Now, I don't think American is in these so-clearly-troubled circumstances. But I see how it's 'risk factor' for moving towards these circumstances is significant.
Is it significant enough to start separating families now? Looks like the answer to that is "no." But it's not like such things have a flag that indicate when it's time to start investigating such solutions. By the time things are obvious - can it be too late?These are not easy questions to answer, they're not even easy to ask.
But they are interesting, and can apply to certain real life situations and should be considered when thinking about "immigration, [any President - including Trump] and family separations."My posts were intending to start the conversations on when/how such ideas should be discussed. And how/if/in-what-level they apply to the current situation in the US.

No Nobel for you, Donald Trump! In fact, what you should get is the liar of the century award. I know it's early in the 21st century, but who could imagine anyone topping your performance.In your latest act, on June 13th upon your return from the Singapore meeting with North Korean leader Kim Jung Un you tweeted, "Just landed - a long trip, but everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office. There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea."How did we know it was a lie? If you're tweeting, you're lying. If you're speaking, you're lying. If anyone in your administration is speaking, they're lying.How goofy must attendees of Trump rallies be, shouting, "Nobel! Nobel! Nobel!" Surely they had ample evidence of your incompetence on the world stage.Well, Donald Trump, no Nobel for you! Yesterday you sent a letter to Congress saying:

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The existence and risk of proliferation of weapons-usable fissile material on the Korean Peninsula and the actions and policies of the Government of North Korea continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States...Therefore, in accordance with section 202(d) of the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1622(d)), I am continuing for 1 year the national emergency with respect to North Korea declared in Executive Order 13466.

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Looks like the working out of details between Mike Pompeo (Secretary of State) and North Korean representatives may not be going so well.Here's the bottom line, it hasn't changed. Talks with North Korea will never go well. North Korea will not give up its nuclear weapons. In return for giving up nothing significant (except maybe the return of US/MIA remains) Kim Jung Un has obtained a cessation of joint military exercises between South Korea and the US. Great work, Mr. President. You are truly a master negotiator.What's next? Halting Russian sanctions and abandoning NATO in return for a Russian promise to work toward someday beginning efforts to develop a plan for holding talks about having a meeting about a ramp down of cyber-invasions and threatening neighboring countries?The only upside to all this? Since you're a liar you're lying to other countries, too. Probably you're no more likely to follow through on your promise to cease joint South Korean/US military exercises than you are to cease being a racist and bigot. Though there is one factor pushing you toward keeping those military exercises cancelled. You see the government's money as your money. Military exercises spend your money, and if they spend it then you can't get your hands on it.--Percy

Instead of a Nobel this is what I think Donald Trump deserves:Thousands of felony convictions to be served consecutively for fraud related to Trump University, and any other business deals where it is easily ascertained he defrauded investors and violated contracts withholding payment for services rendered.I figure the cumulative sentence for his felonies should warrant at least a 5 digit term or even something over 100,000 years.And I know a place which would be perfect for him to serve the remainder of his life - namely the supermax prison in Florence, Colorado. If there are no vacancies just send Ted Kazinski to Atascadero Mental Hospital where he can teach the schizophrenics math and be somewhat useful to society while Trump can rot since he is about as welcome to all life on this planet as the blubonic plague (except of course for the bacterium that causes the plague in the first place).His family and cronies need to be investigated and if warranted, be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.Well, they haven't taken away my dreams yet.

Yesterday's Washington Post ran the opinion piece Sarah Huckabee Sanders and the lost art of shunning. As has been widely reported, Sanders and her party had been seated at the Red Hen in Lexington, VA, when they were asked to leave because she worked for Donald Trump in the role of a key enabler of his lies and cruelties.I disagree with this treatment of Sanders and her dinner party. I think a restaurant open to the public should serve all members of the public, just as I believe a baker should bake wedding cakes for all members of the public, the Supreme Court be damned. The Red Hen restaurant carried out a form of shunning, but a business open to the public shouldn't have that option.What should have happened is that the restaurant staff explain to each table of patrons that the restaurant does not support the policies of the Trump administration nor Sanders role in them, and that if they feel the same that their meal to that point is free if they get up and walk out. The restaurant would also call all with reservations and tell them that if they agree with the restaurant politically to please not come.Shaming is another tool, and we saw it in action on Tuesday when Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen was loudly jeered while dining at a Mexican restaurant, prompting her to leave. And an insult was hurled at Stephen Miller while he was dining at a different Mexican restaurant last Sunday. A congressional intern yelled "Fuck You" at Trump as he walked through the Capitol Rotunda.I wonder if non-supporters of the Nazi party employed shunning and shaming in the years leading up to WWII. I doubt it. The Nazis were not a tolerant bunch, and those in opposition wouldn't have been treated delicately. Also, Hitler experienced success after success during the 1930's, with a dramatically improved economy, a renewed military, and the 1936 Olympic Games. What wasn't to like, even by detractors, as long as your weren't Jewish or retarded or schizophrenic or disabled.And so while we still live in a free country I think we should employ shunning and shaming as two arrows in our quiver of options for opposing Trump.Speaking of opposing Trump, I wasn't happy to learn that anyone living within a hundred miles of our national borders is in a zone where Border Patrol Agents have greater powers. This Zone includes all of New Hampshire where i live, and within the past week agents of the USCIS sep up road blocks on highways to check for illegal immigrants.I object. I am the son of an immigrant mother (okay, my mother was from Canada, not much of a foreign country, but still...) and an immigrant father by three generations (his grandparents entered Ellis Island from the Ukraine in the 1880's), but I am American through and through. I object to these checks. I have never been asked, "Show us your papers," and I'm not going to begin cooperating with Gestapo-style tactics now. I will speak Spanish (very badly) and I will not show ID unless they show cause. Perhaps while I distract their attention and waste their time some poor illegal will sneak through. The Border Patrol says:

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"Travelers have the right to remain silent," it said in a statement. "Travelers who cooperate are passed through quickly, unless the agent suspects they are in violation of federal law. Travelers who refuse to cooperate may be referred to a secondary examination area to allow agents to conduct additional questioning to determine the traveler's citizenship or residency."

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The region of enhanced border patrol power is extensive, since our coastlines are considered borders. All of New York City and Los Angeles are within this zone. Here's a partial map: The Republican Congress recognizes that we have an entitlement funding problem that they want to solve by cutting back on Medicare and Social Security benefits. The reason for the funding gap is too many old people and too few young people, and the problem will grow worse over the next couple decades, reaching a breaking point around 2050.But the solution is staring the Republicans in the face, literally. We need immigrants. Lots of them. Immigrants are mostly young, they follow the law (better than your average American), and they pay their taxes. To potential immigrants along our southern border I say, "Hola! Bienvenidos a nuestro pais." And they'd smile at my accent.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Typo.

The first action was done by the Metro DC DSA, the second, by members of CREDO Action, the third .To my knowledge the only news outlet to give proper credit to the organizations responsible was, of all outlets, The Washington Times.Yeah, that's right - the Moonie paper.I sent them a thank you note. That's how the Lakota raised their kids without the slightest hint of physical violence.Excellent advice.

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On behalf of the people of the United States of America I want to apologize to you personally and to the people of the truly great nation of Canada for the behavior of our demented, abusive, and utterly ignorant President.

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My daughter, my friends, and I are doing everything possible to remove this plague upon the world and bring him to justice.

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Please bear with us in our struggle, we are your best friends, as you are ours, and once this curse is removed from power along with his cronies, I know in my heart we shall never again forget the eternal friendship that the great people and nation of Canada have never forgotten.

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The beacon on the hill is for now, beyond our northern border.

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Please be patient with the childish antics of our amateurish, less better half. The better angels of our true nature will soon overpower them.

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Best wishes,our greatest friends

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William Luis Kincade

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Proud to be a member of the following:

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Permian Basin Democratic Socialists of America (not speaking for the hemisphere, still working on that tough nut to crack, any suggestions?)

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314 Action (Yeah Science!)

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P.S. Congrats for legalizing, your a good man Trudeau, and right now the world needs many more of your awesome moral character.

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Know the guy is busy but still hope he reads it in the spirit in which it is intended.So, does anyone around here know some other email addresses for world leaders? Just off the top of my head I would also like to apologize to Angela Merkel and Theresa May. Oh, and I want to find the biggest pile of cow shit ever for a pic to send to Putin.Edited by anglagard, : missing first two sentences

Merger of Labor and Education Departments should pretty much assure the US of Third World status within a generation.So much for education other than job training.

That area turns out to affect nearly 2/3 of the population of the US.

Theresa May might be a lost cause - she's seeking stronger ties to the US as Brexit imposes chaos and uncertainty on longstanding ties with the EU.--Percy

Unfortunately, most of those immigrants south of the border are brown folks who are hated and feared by large segments of Republican voters. The obvious solution is simply socially unacceptable to them, and their elected leaders run things.After having to back down from snatching babies from the teats of their moms, Trump's rhetoric has become increasingly stark and hateful, with the racism covered by ever thinner layers of reason. If the 2018 elections turn out to favor Trump and his allies, I fear that any hope for solutions to our aging population problem will simply be gone.

From The Hill: Satellite images show North Korea upgrading nuclear research facility.Is anyone surprised by this? Of course North Korea is continuing on the nuclear path. Kim Jung Un played and is playing Trump and his administration for fools. A Washington Post editorial (Trump’s North Korea farce is now plain for all to see) used the right words: "snookered" and "taken for a ride". In return for essentially nothing Kim Jung Un got a legitimizing face-to-face meeting with the leader of the free world and a cessation of joint South Korea/US military exercises.Surprisingly, compared to the circumspect mainstream news outlets, Fox News was direct and to the point in expressing the clear questions and issues (Here's how Trump finds out if North Korea is serious about giving up its nukes):

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Can the Trump Administration avoid the mistakes and traps of the past when it comes to North Korea?

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One thing is for sure: Pyongyang’s nuclear and missile pledges are about as disposable as toilet paper.

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{A description of what denculearization requires us to do.}

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But, if history is any guide, I don’t think any of this comes to pass.

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While I hope North Korea has had its come-to-Jesus moment, my gut tells me Pyongyang will never give up its nukes. If I were Kim, I would utilize the old North Korean nuclear diplomacy playbook: declare your intention to give up your weapons but stall, lie and do whatever you can to make negotiations around the terms of such an enterprise bog down for years. All the while, Pyongyang’s nuclear weapons and missile capabilities continue to be perfected.

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Now is not the time for months and years of endless talks. Now is the time to find out where North Korea standsonce and for all.

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Amazing - honest and straightforward talk out of Fox News.--Percy

Kennedy is retiring from the Supreme Court.If there’s still a Republican majority in Congress a moderate conservative Justice will be replaced a hard right winger - chosen more for politics than for anything else.

"a moderate conservative Justice will be replaced a hard right winger - chosen more for politics than for anything else."Confirmation is a strictly Senate process. I hold out no hope that Democrats will have any input. Ah, what could have been...