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Author | Topic: REMIX: Who Can Be Saved? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom.
And the source of man's freedom is God's power. Therefore, the source of evil is God. And the kicker is that God said so Himself:
quote:So, if an apologist says otherwise, don't believe him. An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So accept the Bible when it's convenient and just make up the rest?
Instead of trying to hold the definition of what God can do and not do to the book written by humans about Him, why not feel free to speculate? Phat writes:
But according to you we do create the reality of Hell ourselves, don't we?
Does this then mean that we are not truly free? Not at all...it only means we cannot create the reality that we want. Phat writes:
I suppose I'm freer than somebody who's trying to please "God".
And yet you don't believe that He even exists. Are you not free? Phat writes:
Well, no. Oxygen didn't create the constraints. Blaming God for our imprisonment is like blaming oxygen for not allowing us to live without it. You can't have it both ways. If your God id the creator of all things seen and unseen, He has to take responsibility for something.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
In such an environment, why would anybody even need a rational mind? You could go around kicking things and smashing beehives with no pesky consequences to think about. But if God created a real world with real consequences and if He created us with rational minds to deal with those circumstances, why wouldn't He expect us to use our minds? Would one even stub a toe in such an environment? Did bees even sting? We dont really know because we now live in a reality where all sorts of scenarios are possible. Perhaps all sorts of realities and outcomes as well. For some rational minds....An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Expects us to grow up, instead of staying in the Playpen of Eden forever?
Perhaps He expects us to question, doubt, and challenge Him. Phat writes:
Remember that He's "saving" us from Himself. We're only "lost" because of Him. It's like being "lost" on a tropical island where we're reasonably happy and contented but He insists on "rescuing" us against our will. Simply saving everybody, however, is too easy. Of course, that brings up the question as to why people are even lost initially, to begin with.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I wouldn't say it's all made up - but if you're going to believe that some of it is true - e.g. Jesus - then shouldn' t you be consistent?
According to you its all made up anyway. So whats the difference? Phat writes:
How does that follow? The Andromeda galaxy is a part of reality and I don't feel any pressing need to deal with that.
if God is a part of reality, we will need to deal with Him eventually. Phat writes:
I don't see how that follows either. We need to take responsibility for our fellow man because your God doesn't. And yet you also insist that humans take responsibility. Perhaps there is a communion after all!And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What ever happened to "free will"?
And why would being "rescued" be against our will? Are we that stubborn that we won't allow Him to help us? Phat writes:
Yes. Is that a bad thing?
Are we so proud that we feel we have outgrown our belief in Him? Phat writes:
Please learn the difference between evidence and belief. Are we so stuck on our own evolved wisdom that we think we need evidence before proceeding with a belief?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If you're going to use the father analogy - and the Bible uses it so it's hard to escape - you should take it to its logical conclusion. Does the father prop up the son forever? To me its a bit like when my Dad taught me to ride a two-wheeler. He didn't hold the bike but he was alongside me should it wobble.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's just the old no-atheists-in-foxholes ploy. In fact, I think the opposite is true: In bad times - e.g. war - people are less likely to believe in gods, not more. They are more likely to ask why a god would let such things happen. They might wish there was a god to save them but they don't really believe it will happen. I predict that there will again come a time within human history that will be so challenging and so tough that some will run back to the comfort of belief and in their own mind feel as if they are returning to God.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
This all leads back to Message 13 where you said, "And yet you also insist that humans take responsibility." As long as my Dad was alive He would have had my back should I ever have needed it. He did not coddle me, but he would never have left me to fend for myself should I have asked for his help. Wouldn't your father also insist that you take responsibility?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Unless you can demonstrate that I can't live without your God, that's a poor analogy.
I again use the analogy of oxygen. One can choose not to breathe it, but it is, in fact, the only gas that will support our life. Phat writes:
You could try paying attention to what I have told you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. I never figured out why you are so stubborn in regards to this growing up analogy....you seem to take pride in not needing any help whatsoever. It's that I can't count on your God to help me.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Huh? You tell me why He isn't helping. You tell me why that homeless guy asks me for help instead of waiting for your God to help him. You tell me why Noah had to build his own ark. ringo writes:
Why? It's that I can't count on your God to help me.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That isn't what Deuteronomy 30 says, is it? So if a man decides to just live his life on his own terms rather than listening to any "God" is he worshipping other gods by default?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
By listening to commentators and apologists?
Well it does mention "turning to other gods." How would one hypothetically do that today? Phat writes:
Build an ark. Not pray for an ark or hope for an ark in the next life. Build one now. If that includes a sore back and bashed fingers, so be it.
You used to always emphasize the message over the messenger...so what does this message say? Phat writes:
The question is, are you capable? Also is an unbeliever capable of listening to this inner Word? If God was actually in communion with you, what would He be saying?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
The mistake you make is in thinking of "The Fall" as a historical event. It's actually a description of the imperfect condition that mankind has always been in. We don't need to be "rescued" from anything. We just need to learn how to deal with our condition. The knowledge of good and evil, which lifted us closer to God, is one step in that learning process. All of them are about rescuing us from our fallen condition....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 732 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
double post
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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