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Author | Topic: The Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3978 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined:
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If image doesn't work (source page) By the way, did your hear that Justify has declined meeting with Donald Trump, saying "If I wanted to see a horses ass, I would have come in second". MooseProfessor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose |
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2644 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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Woody's Children copyright 2018 Nathan A. Smith with adaptations of Woody's song
The children are all taken and parents now handcuffedThen piled into the buses to strip them away Driven back down over the Mexican border Back to the terrors they'd struggled to escape Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria; You won't have a name when you sleep in the cages, All you will have is a numbered tattoo The mother's own mother, she'd waded that river,Still they took all the money she'd made with her skill; Her brothers and sisters come to flee from the danger, But they all been sent back till they're captured and killed. Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria; You won't have a name when you sleep in the cages, All you will have is a numbered tattoo Now some of 'em are illegal, and all are not wanted,These families fleeing from the gang lands of grief; Over six hundred miles from that Mexican border, Where they're treated like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves. Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria; You won't have a name when you sleep in the cages, All you will have is a numbered tattoo Is this the best way we can heal our sick country?Is this the best way? the best we can do? To watch the authorities lock up these children In cages with nothing but a numbered tattoo .... Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria; You won't have a name when you sleep in the cages, All you will have is a numbered tattoo -June 18th, 2018 - xongsmith, 5.7d
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Writing in today's Washington Post Assistant Federal Public Defender Erik Hanshew describes the impact of Trump's program separating immigrant children from their parents: Families will no longer be separated at the border. But where are my clients’ kids?. Read the article, but here are some excerpts:
quote: Read the article. --Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9638 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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I can understand Trump doing this kind of uncaring, unthinking monstrous stuff - he's an uncomplicated arsehole.
What I don't get is why the instututions that had to do this work and deal with the consequeces didn't immediately refuse, rebel, resist, campaign - something. They seemed to just co-operate. It's not a popular or even reasonable comparison but it is reminiscent of the compliance Hitler got. Bit of a worry.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 166 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is a large section of the population that applaud his actions.
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Stile Member (Idle past 371 days) Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Tangle writes: I can understand Trump doing this kind of uncaring, unthinking monstrous stuff - he's an uncomplicated arsehole. I don't know exactly what part you're talking about, but this is the situation as I understand it.I might be wrong. A while ago (Obama administration? Before that?)-Policy was that kids and parents would not be separated at border. -If you illegally came to the border with your kid and refused to leave, you would be given a court date to deal with your illegal entry and sent into the US along with your child (staying together). -This was so that you don't jail a kid and keep them in the same jail as adults (which you would have to do if you jailed the adult and "didn't separate" their child from them) for their parents' crime of illegal entry. The problem:-Some people would steal a kid and take them to the border pretending to be the kids' parent. -Such people (according to the above policy) would then get a court date and be released into the US with their kid. -They would never show up in court. -The kid would be found dead in the surrounding desert as they were "no longer needed" for the person who stole them and used them to cross the border. So... what do you do?Do you jail kids with parents? Do you allow kids to die? So, they changed the policy (during Obama administration, I think?)-Policy is that parents are jailed for crossing the border illegally. -Kids are then held in another area so that they cannot be left to die if the "parent" isn't actually a parent. -Pictures of "kids in cages" were taken. Some of these same pictures (taken under the Obama administration) have surfaced as showing how much of a dick Trump is for keeping kids in cages. Trump inherited this policy from previous administration (pretty sure?)-Now, from the recent pressure, the policy is being changed again so that kids and parents are not separated. -But are kids now being jailed with their parents for their parents' crimes? I don't have a best-answer for this situation.Just wanted to point out that: 1 - Separating kids from parents and putting them "in cages" was not Trump's idea. He inherited that policy.2 - That policy was put in place so that a) Those kids aren't held in the prison system with other criminal adults for committing no crime themselves and b) To keep those kids from being left to die alone in the desert. Is it "better" now?I dunno. What do some of the kids think that go through it?
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2363 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.1 |
A compare and contrast of how children were handled under the previous administrations.
What's real, and what's not, about the U.S. border crisis | CBC News
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Stile Member (Idle past 371 days) Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
DrJones* writes: A compare and contrast of how children were handled under the previous administrations. I think that basically agrees with what I said.Apart from the point where the Trump administration's immigration policies have made the separations more-frequent (I think? It wasn't really clear on this). But the general conundrum is still there.And I think it would be there for any country with border policies. You will have people coming to the border illegally who have kids.What do you do? Do you turn them away and consider it "not my problem?" What if they continually come back or don't leave?Do you jail the parents, and jail their kids with them to keep them together? Is this not punishing the child for the crime of the parent? What else can you do with the child? How long do you hold them? What if you release them after their sentence and they continually come back or don't leave? Do you jail the parent and "hold" the child in some sort of child-care place? How do you take care of these kids? Do you release the parent and child into your country and give the parent a court date hoping they will show? And also hoping that they didn't scam you and won't leave the kid for dead now that they got inside the country? I don't see any really "good" or "efficient" solutions.Does the problem lie in having "illegals" come to the border in the first place? That is - adjust policies so that you identify more as "not illegal" instead of identifying more as "illegal?" --- This seems to be what the Trump administration has done - identifying more as "illegal" - and therefore shedding more light on the terrible-choices-for-solutions on what to do next. Does that frame the situation a little better?
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Where are you getting your information?
Stile writes: So, they changed the policy (during Obama administration, I think?)-Policy is that parents are jailed for crossing the border illegally. -Kids are then held in another area so that they cannot be left to die if the "parent" isn't actually a parent. -Pictures of "kids in cages" were taken. Some of these same pictures (taken under the Obama administration) have surfaced as showing how much of a dick Trump is for keeping kids in cages. Uh, no.
DrJones* writes: A compare and contrast of how children were handled under the previous administrations. What's real, and what's not, about the U.S. border crisis | CBC News Stile writes: I think that basically agrees with what I said. Uh, no. While Bush, Obama and Trump all faced the same difficult problems, only Trump separated parents from their children while, as it appears right now, failing to keep records making reuniting them possible. --Percy
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2363 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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I think that basically agrees with what I said.
not really, the obama era kids in cages were unaccompanied minors, kids caught trying to cross on their own. under obama kids were detained with their parents, until a court ruling prevented it, at that time they started releasing families under orders to appear at a later immigration hearing.
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Stile Member (Idle past 371 days) Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Easy big fella, I'm just trying to learn a few things and investigate the truth on a few questions I have.
Did you notice all the question marks in my first message? They should indicate to you that I'm trying to ask and learn here... not force some preconceived notion. I'm perfectly willing to learn more and adjust my thoughts accordingly.
Percy writes: Where are you getting your information? I found information from things like this:
Kids in cages at border under Obama and Trump If there are pictures of kids in cages separated from their parents under the Obama administration... then it happened, no?If you don't think so... could you elaborate on how these pictures exist a bit more than "Uh, no." That doesn't help me learn much of anything and seems to be entirely refuted by the pictures. And this:
quote: There's not much (any?) data because it didn't happen much during the previous administrations.But "not much" isn't "none" - if it was none, there would be no pictures of it. Therefore... anyone trying to say it was "none" before all of this is not interested in discussing the truth. The problem seems to be that Trump's policies have labelled (many) more people as "illegals" (the part he changed). And none of this gets into the larger question: 1 - Do you want to label anyone coming to your border as "illegal?" If no - then problem solved. 2 - If yes, what do you do if you label someone as "illegal" and they have kids with them?-how do you protect the child? -how do you punish the adult? -how do you prevent abuse from taking place that could lead to harm coming to the children (fake 'parents' at the border just to get across) -is there a good answer to this problem? 3 - if you cannot find a good answer for the "illegal" problem, should you simply focus on reducing the number of people you mark as "illegal?"-the harder you make it for someone to be labelled as "illegal" the more criminals will actually cross your border... are you okay with this?
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Stile Member (Idle past 371 days) Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
DrJones* writes: not really, the obama era kids in cages were unaccompanied minors, kids caught trying to cross on their own. Some were. Maybe most.But all? I don't think you can simply say that without proof. And the proof doesn't seem to exist as the data wasn't collected. Maybe all.But I don't think you can say definitely all. under obama kids were detained with their parents, until a court ruling prevented it, at that time they started releasing families under orders to appear at a later immigration hearing. Yeah. I don't really like either of those situations. One side you have kids being jailed with criminal-adults for crimes their parents committed.The other side you have the potential of using kids to abuse your border crossing policies (potentially resulting in dead kids after the border cross is over). But it's possible that "the best solution" is still one that contains certain unavoidable issues.
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Dogmafood Member Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
copyright 2018 You know don't get me wrong but this is a big part of the problem.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2644 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
ProtoTypical writes:
copyright 2018 You know don't get me wrong but this is a big part of the problem.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
He hates immigrants, he wants them to suffer, and he doesn't care how much they suffer. Separating children from their parents is the greatest injury. Childhood trauma could last a lifetime. One immigrant parent has already committed suicide.
Compounding the problem is that my suspicion yesterday that the records necessary for reuniting families might not have been created let alone kept might be the reality. Today's Washington Post reports that Family Reunification a Complete Snafu. Some excerpts:
quote: Someone asked how the rank and file who implement government policy could do this to families, but most of them are just doing their jobs. In the same way that doctors and nurses become desensitized to the suffering of their patients (they have to be or they couldn't do their jobs), those manning the care centers and the offices and logistics and so forth are just doing their jobs, but there is one job category that should have done some careful thinking and decided whether they could live with themselves, and if the answer was that they could then they should have asked a second question about what that says about themselves. I'm talking about that branch of the Border Patrol (more formally, US Customs and Border Protection) responsible for actually separating children from their parents. But it's not easy. We say that "I was just following orders" is no excuse, but not following orders has very real consequences, such as loss of job, loss of income, loss of career, and when someone refuses to carry out a separation then someone else will just step in and do it, so what has been accomplished? Short personal story: The first time my company lied to me about why I was being asked to lay off an employee I vowed to get out of management. I didn't want to lose my job or change my role in a way that reduced my income, which would have affected my family, so it was three years before I able to transfer into a technical role. Sparing the details, after that I engaged in practices that made me perpetually unpopular with management, which has consequences regarding advancement, promotions and opportunities. Border Patrol people on the forefront of family separation also face the same personal issues. Complicating matters is that the USCIS (US Citizenship and Immigration Service, used to be the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)) handles contact with family members living in the US with whom the separated children might be placed while waiting for their parents immigration status to be resolved. But if those family members are illegals, as is frequently the case, they do not dare engage in contact with USCIS for fear of arrest, so they do not come forward. This is a new problem introduced by the Trump administration, because placement of children used to be handled by a different department outside of Homeland Security, probably the Office of Refugee Resettlement, the same office that is responsible for the children's care. This is how the Nazis succeed. Sorry for going this route, but it's the right route in this case. Usually the news is about only the most senior personnel in government, but government policies are carried out by people we rarely hear of who know they have to follow those policies or suffer very real consequences. You don't stop the Nazis by refusing to follow their orders - that just isn't going to happen on any useful scale. You stop the Nazis by not putting them in power in the first place. Hitler is the poster child for bending a country to his attitudes and will, Edogan in Turkey is following the same template, and Trump may not be far behind. Our democracy is in very real danger. --Percy
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