Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9174 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,616 Year: 4,873/9,624 Month: 221/427 Week: 31/103 Day: 0/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 616 of 882 (834988)
06-16-2018 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Faith
06-16-2018 3:59 AM


quote:
Not necessarily. Some people "in the flesh" have an interest in spiritual things just naturally, or such an interest could be from God who is working on the soul toward salvation, and in any case I'd want to encourage it so that the person might yet pursue salvation
According to Calvinism - as Tangle quoted - it can’t lead to Salvation unless God has already chosen the person to be saved. Calvinism allows no meaningful choice - God decides and that is it. God’s decision is not even based on foreknowledge that the offer will be accepted, let alone actual human choices - to think otherwise is classified as Arminian by Calvinists:
This view is opposed to the Arminian view that God's choice of whom to save is conditional or based on his foreknowledge of who would respond positively to God.
And remember you endorsed the quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 3:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 6:46 AM PaulK has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 617 of 882 (834989)
06-16-2018 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 607 by Tangle
06-16-2018 2:52 AM


Re: Grace and free will
Is there anything beyond you that you consider Superior to your own intellect? Or are you the beginning and end of all things that you encounter and think about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2018 2:52 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2018 5:45 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 618 of 882 (834990)
06-16-2018 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by foreveryoung
06-16-2018 5:35 AM


Re: Grace and free will
foreveryoung writes:
Is there anything beyond you that you consider Superior to your own intellect? Or are you the beginning and end of all things that you encounter and think about?
All the words you use I recognise but when they form sentences I don't get any meaning from them. They have an underlying mysticism that blurrs the words.
There are many things superior to my own intellect in many areas. For example any second year university mathematical student has a greater understanding of mathematics than me but I have a greater understanding of, say, fishing.
I am not the beginning or end of anything.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. Try using plain language.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by foreveryoung, posted 06-16-2018 5:35 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 619 of 882 (834991)
06-16-2018 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by PaulK
06-16-2018 5:14 AM


Calvinism continued
PK writes:
Faith writes:
Not necessarily. Some people "in the flesh" have an interest in spiritual things just naturally, or such an interest could be from God who is working on the soul toward salvation, and in any case I'd want to encourage it so that the person might yet pursue salvation
According to Calvinism - as Tangle quoted - it can’t lead to Salvation unless God has already chosen the person to be saved.
This is true but we aren't in a position to know that in any given case so we give the gospel and leave it to God, and encouraging any signs of interest could help.
PK writes:
Calvinism allows no meaningful choice - God decides and that is it. God’s decision is not even based on foreknowledge that the offer will be accepted, let alone actual human choices - to think otherwise is classified as Arminian by Calvinists:
This view is opposed to the Arminian view that God's choice of whom to save is conditional or based on his foreknowledge of who would respond positively to God.
And remember you endorsed the quote.
Yes I did and it's completely true. The idea of foreknowledge makes God into a powerless passive observer of our sovereign choices by which we could deserve credit, but scripture says God does it all. But we do have choices, we make them all the time, and God may give someone the spiritual ability to choose salvation and that is not for us to judge. Jesus told us to go into all the world and give the gospel because we have no idea whom God has chosen, we are just to leave all that to Him. People will respond or not to the gospel and that's all we need to know.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 5:14 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 6:56 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 620 of 882 (834992)
06-16-2018 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 619 by Faith
06-16-2018 6:46 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
quote:
This is true but we aren't in a position to know that in any given case so we give the gospel and leave it to God, and encouraging any signs of interest could help.
That’s changing the subject. The point was that according to Calvinism God does not offer a meaningful choice to be saved or not. Even if the offer is made the choice has been decreed in advance and our desires are not a factor.
You could argue that God controls our desires, one way or another but that hardly makes things better than God going against them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 6:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 7:01 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 622 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 7:06 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 621 of 882 (834993)
06-16-2018 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 620 by PaulK
06-16-2018 6:56 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
From our human point of view we do have a meaningful choice and that's all that matters. Trying to second-guess God is fruitless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 6:56 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 628 by NoNukes, posted 06-16-2018 8:24 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 622 of 882 (834994)
06-16-2018 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 620 by PaulK
06-16-2018 6:56 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
And yes He does control our desires in the sense I've been saying, that He gives us the ability to choose salvation which otherwise we don't have in our fallen condition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 6:56 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 7:19 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 623 of 882 (834995)
06-16-2018 7:19 AM


The human mind is a wonderful thing, it can believe two totally contradictory concepts without going insane.
Of course, it might be insanity anyway.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 624 of 882 (834996)
06-16-2018 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 622 by Faith
06-16-2018 7:06 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
quote:
And yes He does control our desires in the sense I've been saying, that He gives us the ability to choose salvation which otherwise we don't have in our fallen condition.
No. The point is that either our desires are ignored or they are forced to go in whatever direction God wants. Again there is no real choice. According to Calvinism. The decision is made in advance and we have no say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 7:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 7:49 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 625 of 882 (834997)
06-16-2018 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 624 by PaulK
06-16-2018 7:19 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
PaulK writes:
Faith writes:
And yes He does control our desires in the sense I've been saying, that He gives us the ability to choose salvation which otherwise we don't have in our fallen condition.
No. The point is that either our desires are ignored or they are forced to go in whatever direction God wants. Again there is no real choice. According to Calvinism. The decision is made in advance and we have no say.
No, He gives whomever he wills the ability to choose salvation, to believe the gospel, He regenerates these, gives them the new birth, but otherwise we follow our own fallen nature, which cannot choose such things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 7:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 7:51 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 626 of 882 (834998)
06-16-2018 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 625 by Faith
06-16-2018 7:49 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
quote:
No, He gives whomever he wills the ability to choose salvation, to believe the gospel, He regenerates these, gives them the new birth, but otherwise we follow our own fallen nature, which cannot choose such things.
Those who are chosen for salvation cannot refuse it. That is standard Calvinism. You’ve already admitted that those who are not can’t accept it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 7:49 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 7:59 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 627 of 882 (834999)
06-16-2018 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 626 by PaulK
06-16-2018 7:51 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
Yes we cannot refuse it and for those of us who have received it that is immense rassurance though you make it sound like some kind of deterministic trap. No, when I was first saved I was often afraid my own stupidity could lead me away from God again, since I'd lived without Him for decades already, so the knowledge that I couldn't lose it was immensely comforting. I actually prayed that He wouldn't let me lose my belief in Him. I've always had the sense of having a free will that can make horrible choices because I've made so many in my life. You seem to be picturing some kind of robot-like existence even though you don't experience such a thing and neither do I. You are getting too caught up in a distorted theological theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 7:51 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 10:34 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 628 of 882 (835000)
06-16-2018 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by Faith
06-16-2018 7:01 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
From our human point of view we do have a meaningful choice and that's all that matters. Trying to second-guess God is fruitless.
Not doing that. What is going on here is that people are questioning the rationality of Calvinism. It is that doctrine that requires the double-talk about choices not being choices.
Yes we cannot refuse it and for those of us who have received it that is immense rassurance though you make it sound like some kind of deterministic trap.
Perhaps we should again post what Calvin himself said about the determinism. As I recall your response in the past has been to deny what Calvinists had to say about Calvinism and to brand those quotes as hyper-Calvinism.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 7:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 8:28 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 629 of 882 (835001)
06-16-2018 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 628 by NoNukes
06-16-2018 8:24 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
No it isn't the doctrine's fault, it is the usual problem that our fallen nature distorts it. That is really why we shouldn't even try to discuss it on a forum like this, but of course it keeps coming up and has to be discussed, and since I believe it is the most biblical doctrine that truly honors God I always have to try to defend it. Arminianism makes God weak and passive and directly violates the biblical theme of salvation by grace alone, giving power to human beings to choose which means giving us the credit that is due only to God. So I always have to try to defend Calvinism though it is a doctrine none of us can really grasp and that includes me.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by NoNukes, posted 06-16-2018 8:24 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by NoNukes, posted 06-16-2018 8:39 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 631 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2018 8:58 AM Faith has replied
 Message 632 by NoNukes, posted 06-16-2018 9:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 630 of 882 (835002)
06-16-2018 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 629 by Faith
06-16-2018 8:28 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
No it isn't the doctrine's fault, it is the usual problem that our fallen nature distorts it. That is really why we shouldn't even try to discuss it on a forum like this,
There is no reason not to discuss it. The problem is that Calvinism does not make any sense. That is the reason why you end up having to deny what people, including Calvin, say about it.
And with regards to your appearing to be foolish about it while defending your own understanding. That is how you appear on most topics here. Nothing special about Calvinism in that regard.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 8:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024