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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 86 of 198 (833198)
05-18-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
05-18-2018 11:01 AM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
But it's true that at least here in the UK religion had a large influence in education, particularly following the reformation. But its motives were not altruistic, they were to promote the Church's influence. 'Get them young.'
That's what I said. The point of promoting literacy was to establish Biblical knowledge among the people.
The church actively tried to prevent secular, state-based education - the last thing a religion wants is an enquiring mind and different answers than their own.
Of course, because society can only deteriorate without a Christian worldview to govern it. We're not talking "A religion" of course, we're talking the God who made it all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 11:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 12:37 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 87 of 198 (833199)
05-18-2018 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tangle
05-18-2018 12:16 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
I lived the first 45 plus years of my life as a secular liberal who believed in evolution and had a good reputation among my intellectual friends. When I became a Christian and a YEC I didn't turn into somebody else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 12:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 12:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 109 by dwise1, posted 05-18-2018 5:31 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 110 by Percy, posted 05-18-2018 5:45 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 118 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-18-2018 11:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 91 of 198 (833204)
05-18-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
05-18-2018 12:42 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Nope, those are ad-hominem-fodder questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 12:42 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 1:40 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 92 of 198 (833206)
05-18-2018 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
05-18-2018 12:37 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
Those are links, not evidence in your own words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 12:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 2:36 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 95 of 198 (833218)
05-18-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
05-18-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Then we're forced to form our own conclusions.....
Not necessarily. Civilized people extend the benefit of the doubt and know that ad hominems are bad form.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 96 of 198 (833219)
05-18-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Coyote
05-18-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Ibn Khaldun
And that has what to do with the promotion of universal literacy and general education?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 198 (833223)
05-18-2018 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tangle
05-18-2018 12:37 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
because society can only deteriorate without a Christian worldview to govern it. We're not talking "A religion" of course, we're talking the God who made it all.
Luckily the policy of indoctrination failed and the result is that with the decline of religion's power, secular society has made huge progress despite being utterly stagnant for a millenia under religious rule.
"Millennium" is the singular.
Without Christianity there would have been no secular UK. You'd still be a bunch of warring tribes, some gallivanting around in body paint, some worshiping the sun at Stonehenge, performing witchcraft, celebrating Samhain by propitiating the Aos Si, the pagan gods etc. Perhaps you'd have enjoyed that more than civilization though. Guess what, I think you might eventually get a chance somewhat along those lines....
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 99 of 198 (833224)
05-18-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
05-18-2018 2:36 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
Your words could STATE the evidence. The links aren't going to be much in the way of evidence anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 2:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 3:22 PM Faith has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 115 of 198 (833263)
05-18-2018 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Percy
05-18-2018 5:49 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Never been in a debate with a Muslim but I don't see why I wouldn't extend the benefit of the doubt in the relevant context. Same with Catholics and liberals.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Theodoric, posted 05-18-2018 10:03 PM Faith has replied
 Message 119 by PaulK, posted 05-19-2018 12:41 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 05-19-2018 10:48 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 117 of 198 (833267)
05-18-2018 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Theodoric
05-18-2018 10:03 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
I missed you too, Theodoric. Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed your sabbatical or whatever it was.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 198 (833296)
05-19-2018 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Percy
05-19-2018 10:48 AM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
I've never seen you extend the benefit of the doubt to anyone you disagree with, regardless of context. Muslims are members of a murderous religion, Catholics aren't Christians, and liberals are taking away your rights.
You are not talking about extending the benefit of the doubt about a particular subject in a debate, you are talking about a whole ideology I happen to have studied enough to know that it is what it is. That's got nothing to do with giving any benefit of the doubt. If a Muslim told me in a discussion that he has the "liberal" interpretation of jihad that is spiritual rather than physical, I would have no reason to disbelieve him since I know that interpretation of Islam does exist. But I also know that Islam as interpreted by strict fundamentalists (such as the Iranian Ayatollah Khomeini) very aggressively advocates murdering infidels, considering it a command from Allah, and that sometimes a liberal can change to a fundamentalist. But this is about ideology, not persons, and in any case has nothing to do with the situation of being in a discussion with a Muslim where benefit of the doubt might be relevant.
And you misrepresent what I've said about Catholicism. I've said that some Catholics are certainly Christians but that the institution itself and especially its leadership by the Pope and the hierarchy, is not. Again nothing to do with a discussion in which benefit of the doubt is relevant. The Reformation exposed the essential nonChristianity of Catholicism and antiChristianity of the papacy in particular, in book after book after book. Again this is about ideology, not persons.
The statement about liberals is too broad to answer, but again it is false to talk about individuals since I focus on the ideology and not individuals, at least try to keep the distinction clear.
Bringing this into the thread's context, these same intolerant and inflexible attitudes extend to scientifically established understandings about Earth and life history and are responsible for the persistence of YEC beliefs.
So there's no such thing as established truth about anything according to you, one must always be "flexible" even if one knows something for a fact. You don't believe that yourself of course, you just have a different set of inflexible dogmas than I do, "scientifically established understandings" as opposed to divinely established understandings for instance.
How "flexible" are you about YEC? About the Bible? About the dates of the Earth?
How flexibie are you about my motives in this particular discussion for isntance. How much benefit of the doubt, as a matter of fact, do you ever extend to me on this very subject where you always lambast and excoriate me? Based on your own inflexibile beliefs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 05-19-2018 10:48 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 05-20-2018 9:58 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 198 (833349)
05-20-2018 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Percy
05-20-2018 9:58 AM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
"Scientifically established understandings" was your phrase, and you were condemning me for denying those understandings. Which denial as a matter of fact only pertains to the historical sciences which I consider to be bad science, no other kind of science.
In any case your unwarranted personal attacks on me continue and as a result I continue to ignore you when I choose to.
Oh, and let me repeat: Islam is an evil ideology that seeks the murder of "infidels" as well as a world-wide caliphate; and Roman Catholicism is a power-hungry pagan superstitious ideology that also seeks the murder of "infidels." Two peas in a pod really, as some of the Reformers also noted. There are Muslims who fortunately don't follow their ideology very closely and the same with Catholics, but that doesn't change the fact that the ideologies are pure evil.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 05-20-2018 9:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Theodoric, posted 05-20-2018 10:27 AM Faith has replied
 Message 126 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 10:37 AM Faith has replied
 Message 147 by Percy, posted 05-20-2018 8:29 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 198 (833351)
05-20-2018 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Theodoric
05-20-2018 10:27 AM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
That is an insane fantasy of your own that bears no resemblance to Protestant Christianity. Must be inspired by Catholicism. It was Reformation Proetstantism that inspired all the liberal doctr5ines of the American constitution. Nobody is saying Protestants as human beings are perfect, but Biblical Christianity is the best thing that ever happened to the human race. Of course all the powers of darkness including Roman Catholicism itself are working hard to destroy it.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 127 of 198 (833355)
05-20-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Capt Stormfield
05-20-2018 10:37 AM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
My fundamentalism teaches a merciful loving God who seeks to save us from the eternal punishment for our transgressions of His Law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 10:37 AM Capt Stormfield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 3:41 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 130 of 198 (833393)
05-20-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Capt Stormfield
05-20-2018 3:41 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Can't see the distinction between Allah who wants infidels murdered and offers no salvation, just endless futile attempts to be righteous which includes killing infidels, the Pope who wants infidels murdered and thinks salvation depends on being good or being in good standing with the Roman Church, and the Protestant God who died to save us from the inexorable Moral Law. Right, SO similar.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 05-20-2018 5:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 136 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 7:00 PM Faith has replied

  
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