Creation

Some more thoughts to ponder, at least hypothetically:

If everything was contained in the singularity, does that include every possible thought? Would thoughts and ideas become trapped within a black hole?

Was math invented or discovered? What is the difference between an invention and a discovery?

​

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

---

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This is an assumption that may not apply regardless of what your analogy says. Let's recall that an analogy is only for explaining facts as you know them. Analogies generally cannot be used reliably to prove new things because we they break down at some point.In this case, we have a sentence that you have just thrown in with no justification. The restraints of what pressure ICANT? Pressure results from having some force between objects, and you have not postulated any such thing. In the real universe, there are forces between objects and the rate of expansion of nearby objects is small. In fact far less than 50,000 miles per second for nearby objects, which is a number you seem to have pulled out of thin air anyway.

Everything means all of the matter/energy that later became other things. So no, the singularity would not have contained thoughts. As far as math is concerned, that is a reasonable question. But not because of your initial premise

Hi Mod, Except that which ended up in the galaxies. But we are not talking about a pin point. We are talking about something that is the size of a pin point or pea.If you cut the point off a pin with a pair of side cutters you would have a relatively round object. That object would have a center just as the earth has a center. And just because there was no other place for all the stuff that is in the universe it had to exist in something the size of a pin point or a pea.What would be a mechanism that could exert that much pressure on the contents of the universe that it could reside in such a small place?Since it did expand, why didn't it expand sooner?
Since it did not expand sooner, what caused it to expand when it did?Talk about magic. How do you know it took 13 billion years to get here?This hot little universe that expanded into our universe we have today was supper hot. I kind of get the idea that would have lit the entire universe as it expanded. Which would have been an extended light period of unknown duration. You do remember I have just such a extended light period in my creation story. Are you saying the universe is still the size of the pin point sized object that contained the universe? Correct for the map as it is a 2d picture. On the other hand the earth does have a center that is called the core. Just as the universe has a center.Do you believe the universe is like a rubber sheet?
Do you believe the universe is like a saddle?
Or do you believe the space of the universe expanded in all directions symmetrically, which would create a universe in the shape of a sphere. Was that space outside of the pin sized object?
Or was it between the objects that composed the pin sized object?God Bless,

A singularity has been described essentially as everything in the same place at the same time...except thoughts, according to Modulous.Does he mean that thoughts could hypothetically be apart from the singularity? Are not thoughts only known to originate within human minds?Could there hypothetically be a human outside of the singularity?(Even though by definition there is no outside)

The galaxies are wrinkles in the fabric of the universe. It's only the surface of the balloon that we're considering in the analogy. The surface of the balloon has no center.

Thus the analogy is the rubber expansion rather than the 3rd dimension below it...right? Expansion is hard to visualize when space is expanding ...

Hi NoNukes I think I had mentioned taking 10 lbs of raisins and compressing them into a ball the size of a pea. That would require an extreme amount of pressure on the ball of raisins. It was an imaginary number. You can use any number you desire. A mile a second would scatter my raisins over a large area in a very short time.What are the forces you are talking about?
How did they form under such conditions of expansion?Remember space is supposed to be expanding symmetrically in all direction at 41.6 miles per second.God Bless,

Thoughts are not things. Thoughts are arrangements of things - chemicals and electrical signals in the brain. The chemicals didn't exist at t~0.

Hi ringo, What part of the universe?
The outside surface of the fabric of the universe as the outside surface of the balloon?
The inside of the surface of the fabric of the universe?Galaxies are observed to be scattered through out the entire universe. Are you saying that the universe only has a outside surface? Therefore it does not have a center.But there is no analogy of the 2d balloon with no air in it. When you put air in it the balloon has a center. It has height, width, and depth, making it a 3d object having a center like the earth.In other words the balloon analogy is one of the worst representations of the universe I have ever seen.God Bless,

Yes, it is hard to visualize. The balloon is a 2D area expanding with time whereas the universe is a 3D volume expanding with time. The universe has three spatial dimensions plus the time dimension. The balloon (surface) has two spatial dimensions plus the time dimension.

Yes. The inside surface is not part of the analogy. Neither is the air inside the balloon. Neither is the Volkswagen passing by in the street. Yes.Think of the balloon as a Klein bottle if you like. There is only one surface in the analogy. The whole point of an analogy is to focus on the important points. When you call Jesus the Lamb of God you don't think about shearing Him or making Him into stew, do you? You can misunderstand anything if you try hard enough.

No. All the space, even the space between the raisins in the center of the ball, would expand at the given rate at the same time. Lets assume that there is space between each raisin. Since every point of space is expanding at the same rate (50,000 miles per second) at the end of the first second each raisin (all of them) is now 50,000 miles from each of the raisins it was nearest to a second ago. From the perspective of a raisin on the outer edge of the ball, a raisin on the opposite edge of the ball will have appeared to inflate outward at an enormously wild rate of many multiple times the 50,000 miles per second rate. These two raisins are now separated by a large multiple of the 50,000 miles even though each of the raisins was only moved along with its space by 50,000 miles. None of the raisins moved through space but was carried along with the space it was in when that space expanded.You assume the raisins on the outer edge move outward first. Why? The entire ball, with every raisin in it, from every point of space in it, expands at the very same rate at the very same time. The only pressure is the pressure of each point in space expanding at the same rate at the same time. You're assuming the raisins themselves are exerting a pressure inward. Whether this is true or not has no effect on space. To make this analogy act as we believe the universal inflationary period progressed, every point in space, even the space between the raisins packed in the center of the ball, inflated at the same rate at the same time. To keep your analogy on target with the universal inflationary scenario this state where no raisin is near any other raisin is achieved within the first second. Very true.Now think of each raisin as a galaxy cluster where the force of gravity is powerful enough to overcome and keep the cluster from being torn apart by the expansion of space and you have pretty much the universe we inhabit today. Each raisin, each galaxy cluster, is moving away from every other cluster. Only within the galaxy cluster (40 million light years or so) is the force of gravity strong enough to hold the galaxies together. All of space is expanding (though at a much slower pace then the initial inflationary epoch) and will (we believe) continue never bringing the raisins back together again. No. The Andromeda galaxy is one of the 50+ galaxies within our local galactic raisin. Within our raisin the force of gravity, given the closeness of these 50+ galaxies, is still strong enough to overcome the expansion of space and keep our local group from separating along with the expansion.Get this one. Each point of space within your head is also expanding, albeit on such a small scale it's not by very much, but the electromagnetic force and the two nuclear forces are way stronger at these small scales than the expansion so that is why your head doesn't explode. Yea, that is Hard Part #2: Overcoming the reality of the mechanism to get to the instructive symbol. When going from the 2D analogy and trying to apply the lessons learned to 3D space you have to give up thinking about the balloon analogy's surface but still bring the idea of the expanding space and it effects on what is seen.Keep noodling on it. Maybe it will come to you.Edited by AZPaul3, : clearer, I hope.Edited by AZPaul3, : More cleariating stuff.

Nope, that expanded, and continues to expand. The space between you and your keyboard is expanding too. It's all expanding. Correct. But that's not how the universe is. There is nowhere else for it to go. It expanded immediately. You can't get sooner than that. Observations and mathematics. I'm saying the pinpoint was the entire universe, which we have not left. Almost correct. It's not because it is a 2D picture. There is a centre to any given rectangular picture. The reason there is no centre is because it actually curves around on itself. When you get to the place that is furthest away, where you started is now the new furthest away. Agreed?And if you reduce the size of the surface of the earth - the distances become less - but there is still no centre, correct? If you reduce it so that the furthest distance away is 1cm - there is still no centre, right? There was no space outside the pin sized object. The pin sized object (which is not actually an object, by the way) was all of space - all of it. Every single bit of space in the entire universe. And all of that space expanded. All of it. Every single bit of space in the entire pin sized universe expanded.

In what way is space or the universe like that, ICANT? Was the original singularity made of compressed matter? Fine, then let's use my number of 70km/sec per megaparsec of separation. Using that rate, how long would it take for things that are 10 ^-10 meters apart to separate appreciably?My point is that you cannot make up stuff in an analogy and then claim that it represents something real. Your raisin analogy is worthless.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.