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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 15 of 882 (831623)
04-22-2018 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by dwise1
04-20-2018 12:47 AM


Re: Its about the individual human and what they utilize
dwise1 writes:
The entirety of human existence and concerns far exceed the full range of human thought and concerns. Science, restricted to the physical universe and objective reality, can only ever be but a small part of that. It is only when religion decides that it wants to dictate reality in ways that directly contradicts reality that it ever comes in conflict with science.
But the physical universe and objective reality seems to be all there is. And even if there is something beyond that it is not making any difference to our reality. If evidence emerges about something else and how that something affects us then it will become relevant and it will also become accessible to Science.
From this point of view I consider Religion to be completely irrelevant in our days. It played an important role for people to look for explanations for reality in the past but as Science progresses and explains more things the role of Religion becomes ever more negligible, at least as an explanatory approach.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by dwise1, posted 04-20-2018 12:47 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 31 of 882 (831835)
04-24-2018 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
04-23-2018 2:32 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Faith writes:
"Lean not unto your own understanding" is good advice to fallen humanity so prone to error, when we have God who is omniscient and willing to guide us to the truth: "In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
The Fall. It’s been the perfect excuse for when something doesn’t look right about Christian religion: It’s our fault that we cannot understand God’s ways because we are fallen beings. The sense of guilt and the idea that we need the religious authorities to make sense of God for us, have kept people believing false, damaging and outdated doctrines that so often have been a drag to progress.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 04-23-2018 2:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 04-28-2018 9:19 PM Paboss has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 32 of 882 (831837)
04-24-2018 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
04-24-2018 4:53 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
GDR writes:
You contend that there is no god but you have no actual evidence of that.
There is something called The burden of proof which falls on those making the claim, in this case, that there is a god. For one being faced with no evidence for such a claim, the rational default position is to assume that it does not exist. Here’s an important difference between Religion and Science: While the former has been an attempt at explaining things which are not understood by making up explanations, the latter is the search for explanations starting from an open position of ignorance and curiosity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 04-24-2018 4:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 04-28-2018 2:14 AM Paboss has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 33 of 882 (831838)
04-24-2018 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by GDR
04-24-2018 5:10 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
GDR writes:
Of course we don't KNOW the truth. We all choose what we believe to be true. We can look at the world where the idea that sacrificial love is valued in a culture, the better the culture has done.
Christianity over History has done good and bad things (I personally think more bad than good). One good thing it did was to encourage caring for those in disadvantage. Christian institutions provided education, hospitals and general social welfare back when those where responsibility of the Church. Today, in Western societies more and more of that falls on hands of secular institutions. I think Christian philosophy made a good contribution in encouraging caring for the people in need, but that in itself gives not value of true to all the doctrines that the church propagated through its social outreach programme.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 04-24-2018 5:10 PM GDR has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


(1)
Message 38 of 882 (832007)
04-28-2018 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Tangle
04-28-2018 3:27 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Tangle writes:
But it does ask the question of why believers keep making the same mistakes when trying to make their case?
I don't even know why they bother at all. If it was my belief I'd just claim it as a belief, why the hell try to rationalise it?
I am a former Christian. Looking to understand more about God I made the mistake of reading the entire Bible. I read it complete at least three times hoping the Holy Spirit would guide me to understand the things I didn’t before. It always made me uncomfortable the overwhelming amount of problems that the Bible has: Absurd claims, lots of contradictions; and worse than that, the horrible moral values of the biblical god. I wanted badly to maintain my faith; it was inconceivable to lose it. When you are a strong believer, it is really scary to think you could lose your faith, because you think your life would lose meaning. So I tried to rationalise all those problems I saw with the Bible, but never managed to find satisfactory excuses. Eventually I got fed up with the bullshit, and realised that I had to embrace reality. I cannot speak for every believer, but I’m sure there are many who find themselves in the dilemma I once was in, and try to make rationalisations because they are afraid of losing their faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2018 3:27 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 04-28-2018 8:46 PM Paboss has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 39 of 882 (832010)
04-28-2018 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
04-28-2018 2:14 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
GDR writes:
It is a fact that we exist. It is a fact that ultimately there is a reason we exist.
Yes, it is a fact we exist, so?
When you say that ultimately there is a reason we exist, you mean it as in purpose or you mean it as in there is an explanation as to how we got here? I suspect you are inclined to the former. But that is not a fact. It does not have to be a purpose for our existence just as there is not purpose on people getting cancer or there is no purpose on someone winning the Lottery; it just happens. While Religion pretends there is a why and pretends to answer it, Science seeks to answer how.
GDR writes:
There is no discernible evidence that these processes were the result of other mindless processes going back to the point of the Big Bang. Therefore the rational default position is that we are the result of processes that are the result of pre-existing intelligence.
Once again you are shifting the burden of proof to where it doesn’t belong. The problem is that there is no evidence of those processes being devised by any intelligent agency, let alone specifically the Christian god. As PaulK and Tangle pointed out, you are jumping to illogical conclusions. But even if we could ever establish that there is a pre-existing intelligence, we would be back in the same position, as we would need to explain how it came to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 04-28-2018 2:14 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by GDR, posted 05-12-2018 4:05 PM Paboss has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


(2)
Message 63 of 882 (832310)
05-02-2018 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
04-28-2018 9:19 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Faith writes:
When I was becoming a Christian in my mid-to-late forties in the late eighties, entirely from reading books about religion, I found the doctrine of the Fall/original sin to be the most amazingly illuminating thing I'd ever heard. It explains just about everything about our current condition, our propensity to sin, to disobey all God's laws, and our lack of communication with God, it explains war and violence and murder, just about everything. Nothing makes sense without it.
It makes sense of everything and of anything because it can magically explain anything we cannot make sense of:
Why do we see contradictions in the Bible? We have fallen minds.
Why do our moral values differ from those of God? We are fallen beings.
Why do we hurt each other? We are fallen beings.
Why Science leads us away from God? It is carried out by fallen minds.
Why do we misinterpret the Bible? We have fallen minds.
Why do some feel sexually attracted to same sex people? Fallen human nature.
Why do we think women and men are equal? We are fallen beings who cannot get God’s order.
Why do animals eat each other? Nature is fallen because of us.
Why natural disasters? See above.
You see I can keep going ad infinitum explaining anything I want with the fall, making sense to everything, but it doesn’t make it true.
Faith writes:
We are magnificent creatures, I've always felt that, and that "science" is so determined to demote and degrade us there has to be something wrong with science. Something I felt long before I was a Christian. But we are also broken creatures. Biblical doctrine explains that we were meant for a high destiny but that disobedience of our Creator cut us off from that high destiny.
It doesn’t need to be anything wrong with Science; perhaps you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. You think Science is determined to demote and degrade us because it says nothing about us having that high destiny the Bible talks about. But Science is not in the business of making value statements about anyone, it is simply a method for approaching and understanding the natural universe around us. I find it amazing that we are here against all odds; that we are very fortunate for that, and that it makes it worth to seize the opportunity to make the most of our little time around here. It also gives us good reasons to try to make things better for others, because this is the only chance we have at life, and as far as we can tell, those who are oppressed in this life won’t get any compensation in any other life; so it is better to be kind to each other in the only life we have.
Faith writes:
That fits what I always felt about human beings better than I could ever have thought it. And then on top of that I find out that God has given us a way to recover our high destiny out of love for us, and it reduces me to tears of gratitude.
I get it that you find it appealing, and I would agree that at least some of the Christian worldview is appealing for me too. But we don’t have the power to wish alternative realities into existence. We can only deal with the reality we are presented with. Science is making progress in understanding that reality so that we can make the most of it. On the other hand religions are in conflict with each other and creating confusion, because none have sound arguments or evidence to become reliable guides for our lives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 04-28-2018 9:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 05-02-2018 1:34 PM Paboss has not replied
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 05-03-2018 6:33 AM Paboss has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


(1)
Message 110 of 882 (832612)
05-06-2018 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by RAZD
05-03-2018 6:33 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
RAZD writes:
Hi Paboss and welcome to the fray.
Hi RAZD,
Thanks for welcoming me to your topic and for the advice on editing. I’ll keep it in mind. Regards.
Edited by Paboss, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 05-03-2018 6:33 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 111 of 882 (832614)
05-06-2018 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
05-05-2018 2:31 PM


Re: Revising The Book
Phat writes:
Speak for yourself. I see no evidence that mainstream science has rejected the resurrection.
But there is evidence of that in which they do not recognize the resurrection as a fact. If what you mean is that Science doesn’t have evidence to disprove the resurrection they don’t need any. What they would need is evidence for the resurrection in order to accept it as something that really happened. But there is not even consensus in the question of whether Jesus existed at all or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 05-05-2018 2:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 112 of 882 (832615)
05-06-2018 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
04-29-2018 3:56 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Faith writes:
Of course we should all read the Bible for ourselves. I was responding to the fact that Paboss apparently didn't know the Bible although he considered himself a strong Christian, so when he sat down to read it he discovered all these things about it that offended him. So I figure he wasn't getting much preaching on it either.
I know the Bible very well; well enough to understand it cannot be interpreted as literally true. And I did get a lot of preaching from pastors and priests of different denominations and none of that was convincing.
But why don’t you recommend me a good preacher? Give me a link to a video that you think addresses one of the many problems I see in the Bible. Although Bible contradictions are bad enough, I’m even more concerned about the moral values of the Bible. So please send me a link of a sermon that addresses one of the following issues:
This is just a small sample. There is an overwhelming amount of moral problems with the Bible. If you don’t have sermons addressing one of the issues in the previous list, take one from the extensive list of Bible atrocities in this website: Bible Atrocities » Internet Infidels. Show me one good sermon addressing any of these atrocities and I’ll let you know what I think of it. Regards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 3:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 05-06-2018 5:42 AM Paboss has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


(1)
Message 137 of 882 (832830)
05-11-2018 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
05-06-2018 5:42 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:
I know you know the Bible well NOW, I was talking about before you read it. As I understood it, you already considered yourself a Christian before you read it. If not, please correct.
Yes, I was brought up Christian so I read the Bible being already one. Reading the bible and critically thinking about it was very influential in me becoming an atheist.
Faith writes:
I doubt I could find sermons specifically directed to the topics you list, though I'm sure they get discussed in passing in many. However, I'll sketch out my own answers.
I wasn’t expecting your personal answers on these issues. Not that I’m not interested, but I had already asked you about these on the topic that you created: The tension of faith. You answered the same things you are saying now, I gave you a counter-reply but you made no further comment. Since I had already replied to you about your opinions I won’t go this time point by point, but will just add some comments.
I was expecting some videos of sermons you could recommend. I thought you would be very happy to refer me to some of those. On the other hand I understand that you cannot find sermons specifically directed to these issues I listed. The preachers don’t want to go there; they know it could prompt people to question. That’s why they if anything mention them marginally but they are quite skilled at directing people’s attention to nicer and less problematic issues.
Faith writes:
Bible position in regards to slavery.
Are you aware that it was Christians who led the movement against slavery? Wilberforce in England, the abolitionists in the US. They took their cue from the Bible.
You may note I wasn’t asking about Christianity’s position on slavery but the Bible’s. It’s hard to tell the position of Christianity at large about anything because there are many different denominations.
The fact that there were Christians who led the movement against slavery in the two cases you mention is only circumstantial. It’s what you would expect in countries where pretty much the whole population was Christian. And if they took their cues from the Bible, where could that be from? I would imagine nice quotes taken out of context, like Jesus telling people to love each other or saying that the truth would set them free. I heard the other day someone saying that God was clearly against slavery because he said: Thou shalt not steal and slavery was stealing someone’s freedom. Can you see how ridiculous can one get trying to rationalise the Bible to make it look good?
On the other hand, there were also Christians those who supported slavery. And they too, took their cues from the Bible to argue in favour of slavery. And quite frankly, if we were to take the Bible as moral authority we would have to concede that the pro slavery Christians did have a point, because one of the few things the Bible is unambiguous about is its position of endorsing slavery both in old and new testaments.
Faith writes:
As I understand it God didn't outlaw it because it was so woven into the cultural fabric of the day and especially the economic side of life nobody would have obeyed it and would therefore have lived with a bad conscience.
Faith writes:
Again the Bible is dealing with an ingrained social system that would resist and even ridicule and probably be violent toward any attempt to liberate women.
Both in the issue of slavery and gender equality you argue that these were practices ingrained in the people of the times when the Bible was written and God did not outlawed them because people would not obey. But do you know what else was ingrained in the people of that time? Idol worshipping and eating a lot of different animals. However God had no problem telling them not to do that and giving detailed instructions on how to worship only him and what to eat and what not. Couldn’t just as easy the all-powerful God have given them instructions like these: thou shalt not have slaves and thou shalt treat women and men equally? It is understandable that people of biblical times were sexist and considered slavery something normal, but the eternal creator of the universe should have known better.
Faith writes:
abe: The ironic thing in all this moral attack on God is that the attackers are using God's own work against Him. (...) People were just put out on the streets to die or fend for themselves, children included. Christians founded hospitals and orphanages, starting by personally caring for the sick and for abandoned children. Newborns put out to die were rescued by Chrstians. Effortts to help the poor were initiated by Christians.
I had already recognised that Christians have done some good things through history in a post that I wrote to GDR. I mentioned the same things you are saying here. Let’s ignore for a moment the bad things Christianity has done. It would be great if Christians simply took the nice things from the bible and ignore the poison. Jesus said some nice things, specifically considering the time the gospels were written. But as much as Jesus, if he existed, could have been someone to admire, and as much as his teachings could have inspired people to goodness, that says nothing about the value of true of the extraordinary claims surrounding him or any other biblical character.
Faith writes:
But the Bible certainly doesn't condone any mistreatment of homosexuals.
Except perhaps killing them (Lev 20:13)?
Faith writes:
I certainly wish you the best, which means I hope you will come to your senses and see how wrong you are about all this.
If I am wrong, I would need demonstration of how am I. I’m always open to revise opposing points of view. So far, all I have found from religious views is sheer nonsense. I can see it now that I walked away from it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 05-06-2018 5:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 12:38 AM Paboss has not replied
 Message 139 by jar, posted 05-12-2018 9:56 AM Paboss has replied
 Message 145 by GDR, posted 05-12-2018 4:37 PM Paboss has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 272 of 882 (833325)
05-19-2018 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
05-12-2018 9:56 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
jar writes:
That Biblical concept of morality unfortunately continues even today in much of Christianity; with Christians seeing nothing immoral in the God they market condemning everyone but the "Select" (meaning those that Cult selects) to eternal damnation and by creating Apologetic Justification for events documented in the Bible that could only be seen as immoral by any current moral standard person.
Many of those Christians do genuinely believe in those apologetic justifications. But many also fight with their own conscience. They force themselves to believe because they are afraid of losing their faith. There are reasons for this:
jar writes:
The problem is not the Bible; it's the readers and the writers. Their sense of morality is all too often selective; they have one set of standards for "us" and a different set of standards for "them".
I understand that ultimately the problem is people using double standards and using the Bible to justify horrible ideas. Just as a gun doesn’t kill by itself unless a person pulls the trigger. But just like a gun was designed for killings or harming, the Bible was designed or put together for a reason. The reason was to subdue people into obedience. When Constantine decided that Christianity would be the state religion, he must have seen the potential that this belief system had to dominate people through fear and to maintain the status quo. Later, when the Bible was put together, plus all other creeds and doctrines made up by the church through History, it was with the objective of legitimising this status quo as God given. The Bible encourages the less fortunate to suck it up, serve their masters and be content with the hope of a recompense in the afterlife. I know the doctrine of afterlife is not present in the Old Testament, but only in the New, as it was taken from Zoroastrianism. But this is just one example of convenient ideas and doctrines made up from verses from the bible and used to subdue the people. The Bible is a problem in the way it has been used as an excuse to justify a lot of horrible things through history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 05-12-2018 9:56 AM jar has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 273 of 882 (833326)
05-20-2018 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by GDR
05-12-2018 4:05 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
GDR writes:
Sorry being so slow on getting back to you. Life seems to happen.
No worries, I can’t be here as often as I wish, either.
GDR writes:
Either we are the result of a virtually infinite string of causes based on chance or we are the result of intelligence. As has been pointed out to me by atheists on this forum, (and I agree with them), there is no point in talking about time before the BB or when time=o because it is a meaningless question. However you insist that you have to go back before time=0 to ask the question of who created God.
That is precisely the problem. When you want to bring into the equation a creating being, is your view the one that requires us to go back in time beyond the Big Bang to try and understand how this god came to exist.
If you want to go with the dichotomy Intelligent design-chance (and here is a caveat: evolution either of the universe or life on Earth are not strictly chance driven processes), you cannot have a god designing everything while this god himself appeared by chance. And to say that this god has existed forever is meaningless as it explains nothing.
The thing is you cannot explain something complex like the universe we live in with something even more complex like a being capable of designing it. I don’t know what, or if anything happened before the Big Bang, but if we are all creation of some intelligent being, this being itself must be the result of a long process that started with simplicity and eventually allowed this god to appear on the scene.
GDR writes:
Why when some physicists claim that our universe is infinite, then can we not also accept the possibility of there being an infinite intelligence that is responsible for the fact that we exist?
We can conceive that as a possibility, but with no evidence whatsoever the default position is it doesn’t exist, until proven to exist. And then again, if we happen to find evidence for this creating being, that will not be the end. The next question we should strive to answer is how this creator came to be.
GDR writes:
I don’t think that religion pretends to answer the why but it does attempt to explain why just as science attempts to explain how. However, science uses physical evidence in its attempt to explain how, whereas religion uses recorded history and philosophy to explain why.
It may well be that you use religion as your attempt to figure out the answers to the important questions for you. But if you look at the Bible or other sacred text for that matter, they do present themselves as the definite truth, not simply as an attempt to answer. Furthermore, why assume that it needs to be a why regarding our existence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by GDR, posted 05-12-2018 4:05 PM GDR has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 274 of 882 (833327)
05-20-2018 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by GDR
05-12-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:
Just a thought on this. In many ways I agree with this but with a few caveats. It isn’t the bad things that Christianity has done, but the bad things that some people who wore the label Christian who have done some very bad things.
Christianity is a man made religion as all religions are man made. It takes some things such as the life and teaching of Jesus as well as his death and resurrection as being historically true and then forming a theology around that.
As I responded to Jar, who raised a similar point about the Bible not being the problem but the people who use the Bible to do bad things; yes, I understand is people that ultimately are responsible for what they do. But religion provides a justification for them to do what they have done.
The New Testament says on the one hand nice things about Jesus. On the other hand encourages slaves to serve their masters with all their will, even the more if they are Christians too. It tells women that they cannot teach men and must be submissive. These things have been excuse for a lot of inequalities. After all, as you say, religions are human inventions. They are made up after the moral values of the people who created them and that’s why they tend to provide such ill advice.
GDR writes:
I believe, (no matter how imperfectly I live it), that God thorough the CHRISTian faith calls me to live a life that is based on sacrificial love, as Jesus lived, or, put another way, to the life that my signature calls us to. The rest of it is all theology.
But then is you as an adult person with the capacity to tell right from wrong, who decide which parts of the Bible you take to inform your views. There is no criteria given by the Bible itself to tell you what is God-inspired and what is human construction. You have to decide by yourself. If you decide to take Jesus example is because you have a sense of empathy that tells you that the words attributed to him are (mostly) good advice. That sense of empathy has been the result of the evolution of our social and moral standards, which make us judge as obnoxious many of the things that appear on the Bible which are attributed to God. It is certainly a great relief that our moral standards of today are well above those of the times when the Bible was written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by GDR, posted 05-12-2018 4:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by NoNukes, posted 05-20-2018 2:21 AM Paboss has replied
 Message 323 by GDR, posted 05-21-2018 12:09 AM Paboss has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1881 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 277 of 882 (833335)
05-20-2018 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by NoNukes
05-20-2018 2:21 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
NoNukes writes:
A lot of things justify folks doing bad stuff including capitalism, racism, love of family. Most of the stuff that motivates us can also provide justification for doing bad stuff.
Yes, there are ideologies, cultural traits or human values that have nothing to do with Religion and those have also been used by people to justify bad stuff. But an important difference with Religion is that the justification in the latter is presented as coming from an omniscient perfect being who knows better than us. For people who believe in such a God, and believe in his sacred book to be his perfect message is a lot easier to justify doing bad things. No wonder religions like Christianity and Islam have lasted for so long and it seems like they will be with us yet for quite a while.
When someone thinks that, for example, gender inequality is God’s will, even if they don’t like it, still feel compelled to support it. Look at this example:
Faith in message 193 writes:
How would I know what to believe if I hadn't read what I've read? And actually I don't pick and choose according to what I believe, I often understand that things I don't agree with are nevertheless true so I subordinate my own opinion to them. The teachings on women's role for instance.
By the way, as you know, people have profusely used the word of God to justify racism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by NoNukes, posted 05-20-2018 2:21 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by NoNukes, posted 05-20-2018 4:31 AM Paboss has replied

  
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