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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 14 of 882 (831620)
04-21-2018 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-18-2018 8:21 AM


Compatibility of science and religion
RAZD writes:
RELIGION:
All your questions answered ...
... trust us ...
There are no doubt some that do believe that they have absolute answers for everything. However, that isn’t really the norm for most believers. At its core religion is simply mankind’s attempts to understand the nature of an external intelligence that is responsible for our existence and then, what that means to our lives. I would agree that too much of religious activity has been about gaining power or about trying to figure out how we can get that external intelligence working for us.
As a Christian I’ll simply deal with the question from that perspective. The Bible itself is obviously a group of books which depicts a progressive revelation, with that part of the revelation climaxing in Jesus of Nazareth. Since the time of Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection there have been countless people trying to work out what that should mean to us, with Paul being the first that we have a record of. I contend that mankind is continuing to gain a more focused understanding of God all the time.
Again as a Christian, I do question what people including preachers, theologians etc tell me and like every other Christian have come to my own conclusions. From my perspective the only one I know who has it all correct is me, but even then I continue to question where I might be wrong and make corrections.
RAZD writes:
SCIENCE:
All your answers questioned ...
... trust nothing ...
That sounds good, but from my observation I'd say that some scientists can be just as dogmatic as some theists.
RAZD writes:
Religion is about authority and depends on people (preachers etc), while science is about process independent of people, and you don’t need to be an accredited scientist to do science.
The misuse of either can be about controlling people. Science is sometimes used to discredit all religious belief, while religion is sometimes used to discredit scientific belief.
My religious beliefs suggest, as per my signature, that I should humbly love kindness, and act justly. It does not give me absolutes about how that applies to specific cases and leaves me free to make my own decisions of how that looks both generally and specifically. It isn't about control, but about a way of living my life that I have freely chosen. (That is not to say that I am very good at it.)
My Christian religion answers different questions than does my interest in science. I understand science as a natural theology, and I personally find that it is not only compatible but complementary to my Christian beliefs. There is nothing in science that I reject because of my religious beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 04-18-2018 8:21 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 04-22-2018 2:32 AM GDR has replied
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2018 6:54 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 27 of 882 (831785)
04-24-2018 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tangle
04-22-2018 2:32 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Tangle writes:
You can contend that but you've got no actual evidence of it. You have no more idea of God than I have.
You contend that there is no god but you have no actual evidence of that.
I understand the nature of God but what what we have written about Jesus. Sure, I can't prove the accuracy of the Gospel stories, but by understanding that Jesus presented the true nature of God and His model of how we are called to live our lives is something that makes sense of my life, and the world I live in. I am prepared to live my life as best I can adhering to his message that we are to love His creation sacrificially, and that is something that I am prepared to take on faith.
Tangle writes:
This is the point - you all make up your own God to suit yourselves.
....as you make up your lack of faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 04-22-2018 2:32 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 04-24-2018 5:16 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 32 by Paboss, posted 04-24-2018 10:25 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 28 of 882 (831787)
04-24-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
04-22-2018 6:54 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
PaulK writes:
Aside from the fact that religion is far too diffuse a phenomenon to be characterised so simply, aside from the fact that religions don’t even need any sort of God, let alone one responsible for humans, the religious attitude far too often opposes understanding in the name of dogma. And that very much includes you.
OK, the theistic religions. I'm wondering what understanding that I have that opposes understanding.
PaulK writes:
Except there is nothing obvious about that. There is a lot of revisionism, but whether it constitutes revelation is far from obvious. That the pre-Christian books were building up to the supposed climax seems more likely false than true. You may say that you were answering from the perspective of Christian belief, but that simply takes it back to my previous point - dogma is taken as more important than understanding.
I simply said that it is obvious that The Bible shows an evolving understanding or a progressive revelation. I wasn't arguing that was evidence of its accuracy. I'm only saying that taken from a Christian perspective it is obvious.
PaulK writes:
I am not sure how you would measure focus, nor how you would count the increase in the number of people - at least in the West - who don’t associate with any formal religion. Moreover a more focussed view is only beneficial if it is focussed on the truth and there is no way to judge that (except, perhaps, in the way that religionists often avoid inconvenient truths, perhaps)
Of course we don't KNOW the truth. We all choose what we believe to be true. We can look at the world where the idea that sacrificial love is valued in a culture, the better the culture has done.
PaulK writes:
Regardless of individual,weaknesses, scientists as a group are likely more open-minded about science than religionists are about their religion. And, as an institution Science has a much better record than religion.
Ultimately science can usually prove or disprove there ideas so it is easier to move on than it is with religion. However, as near as I can tell, there certainly are numerous theories in the field of QM that scientists vigorously disagree on and are pretty dogmatic in their beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2018 6:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 04-24-2018 5:24 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 33 by Paboss, posted 04-24-2018 10:38 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 34 of 882 (831953)
04-28-2018 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Paboss
04-24-2018 10:25 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Paboss writes:
There is something called The burden of proof which falls on those making the claim, in this case, that there is a god. For one being faced with no evidence for such a claim, the rational default position is to assume that it does not exist.
It is a fact that we exist. It is a fact that ultimately there is a reason we exist. It is a fact that science has discerned processes by which life as we know it evolved. There is no discernible evidence that these processes were the result of other mindless processes going back to the point of the Big Bang. Therefore the rational default position is that we are the result of processes that are the result of pre-existing intelligence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Paboss, posted 04-24-2018 10:25 PM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2018 2:49 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 39 by Paboss, posted 04-28-2018 6:57 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 143 of 882 (832843)
05-12-2018 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Paboss
04-28-2018 6:57 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Sorry being so slow on getting back to you. Life seems to happen.
GDR writes:
It is a fact that we exist. It is a fact that ultimately there is a reason we exist.
Paboss writes:
Yes, it is a fact we exist, so?
When you say that ultimately there is a reason we exist, you mean it as in purpose or you mean it as in there is an explanation as to how we got here? I suspect you are inclined to the former. But that is not a fact. It does not have to be a purpose for our existence just as there is not purpose on people getting cancer or there is no purpose on someone winning the Lottery; it just happens.
I actually meant the former as there is an explanation of the cause of our existence. Either we are the result of a virtually infinite string of causes based on chance or we are the result of intelligence. As has been pointed out to me by atheists on this forum, (and I agree with them), there is no point in talking about time before the BB or when time=o because it is a meaningless question. However you insist that you have to go back before time=0 to ask the question of who created God.
Why when some physicists claim that our universe is infinite, then can we not also accept the possibility of there being an infinite intelligence that is responsible for the fact that we exist?
Paboss writes:
While Religion pretends there is a why and pretends to answer it, Science seeks to answer how.
I don’t think that religion pretends to answer the why but it does attempt to explain why just as science attempts to explain how. However, science uses physical evidence in its attempt to explain how, whereas religion uses recorded history and philosophy to explain why.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Paboss, posted 04-28-2018 6:57 PM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Paboss, posted 05-20-2018 12:16 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 145 of 882 (832845)
05-12-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Paboss
05-11-2018 11:16 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Paboss writes:
I had already recognised that Christians have done some good things through history in a post that I wrote to GDR. I mentioned the same things you are saying here. Let’s ignore for a moment the bad things Christianity has done. It would be great if Christians simply took the nice things from the bible and ignore the poison. Jesus said some nice things, specifically considering the time the gospels were written.
Just a thought on this. In many ways I agree with this but with a few caveats. It isn’t the bad things that Christianity has done, but the bad things that some people who wore the label Christian who have done some very bad things.
Christianity is a man made religion as all religions are man made. It takes some things such as the life and teaching of Jesus as well as his death and resurrection as being historically true and then forming a theology around that.
The core of Christianity is based on seeing Jesus as perfectly embodying the Word or Wisdom of God. Where it gets off track is when it starts understanding the Bible as being essentially dictated by God. The Bible contains all sorts of contradictory statements and actions. You cannot square Jesus’ love your enemies with people’s claims that Yahweh commanded them to commit genocide or public stoning. Either you have CHRISTianity or BIBLEianity. I have chosen Christianity, which in the context of the life and the world I live actually makes sense of it.
I believe, (no matter how imperfectly I live it), that God thorough the CHRISTian faith calls me to live a life that is based on sacrificial love, as Jesus lived, or, put another way, to the life that my signature calls us to. The rest of it is all theology.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Paboss, posted 05-11-2018 11:16 PM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 5:31 PM GDR has replied
 Message 274 by Paboss, posted 05-20-2018 12:38 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(2)
Message 150 of 882 (832850)
05-12-2018 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
05-12-2018 5:31 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith’s quote writes:
So, it is also accurate to say that inspired men of God wrote the Bible. The doctrine of the inspiration of Scripture essentially teaches that God superintended the human authors of the Bible so that their individual styles were preserved but the end result was precisely what God wanted.
Then why are there so many contradictions in morality, history, timing etc. Yes God inspired people to write their stories and if read correctly He will speak knowledge and wisdom to us through this library of 66 books. Read literally as you do then God is god of situational ethics and hypocrisy, telling us that killing is wrong but then having Him either directly slaughtering communities, or even worse, ordering His followers to commit genocide. That is what you get when you make a false idol out of the Bible, and follow it even when it directly opposes the life and message of Jesus.
Faith writes:
You are accusing God of criminality for His severe punishment of criminals/"the wicked."
God doesn’t punish criminals — people do. You however are prepared to worship a god who sanctions public stoning of children and the genocide of whole communities. Not for me thank you very much.
Faith writes:
We are seriously at fault when we refuse to punish criminals severely, such as by abandoning the death penalty. It is in fact love to punish criminals to protect the innocent and society in general. Judging God by your human standards is a very serious sin.
Certainly we should do all we can to protect the innocent. As far as capital punishment is concerned it requires that we have some individual take the life of another human being, while we sit at home with clean hands and an unclean heart. If you want to protect the lives of the innocent then I suggest that life imprisonment is just as effective and better for the nation.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 5:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 10:51 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 153 of 882 (832854)
05-13-2018 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
05-12-2018 5:44 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
PaulK writes:
The idea that this refers to the Bible as a whole - as the author would have you believe - is simply not present in the text. There is nothing there to say which work is meant to be the word of our God.
The Bible talks about the word of God in many places, but to say that the Bible is talking about itself when no such claim is present is simply dishonest.
So a question. If the author truly believed that the Bible was the word of God, why would he misrepresent it so obviously ? And if he doesn’t believe it, why should anyone believe him ?
When the Biblical writers use the term "Word of God" it is not referring to the Scriptures. It is referring to the Logos and can be also translated as the "wisdom" of God. In Genesis it metaphorically talks about God speaking the world into existence, (such as in God said let there be light etc. ) and so it is in reference to that. The "Word of God" put another way is the essence, the wisdom and the power of God when used in the Bible.
It is also used by the writer of the Gospel of John when he sates that the "Word became flesh" in the person of Jesus. That is why as Christian we understand the true nature of God by looking at Jesus and not at an inerrant Bible.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 05-12-2018 5:44 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 4:17 AM GDR has replied
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 5:06 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 169 of 882 (832872)
05-13-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
05-13-2018 4:17 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:
When the Biblical writers use the term "Word of God" it is not referring to the Scriptures. It is referring to the Logos and can be also translated as the "wisdom" of God. In Genesis it metaphorically talks about God speaking the world into existence, (such as in God said let there be light etc. ) and so it is in reference to that. The "Word of God" put another way is the essence, the wisdom and the power of God when used in the Bible.
PaulK writes:
Or it might refer to the words attributed to God in the Bible. While the Bible never claims divine authorship it does have sections that are claim to be God’s words, as set down by the human writers.
The claim that God spoke to them, is not the same thing as when the term "Word of God" is used as a noun.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 4:17 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 10:55 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 170 of 882 (832873)
05-13-2018 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Faith
05-13-2018 5:06 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:
Traditional Bible theologians say you're wrong. They agree with that quote I gave that "All scripture is God-breathed." I think I'll go with them.
That statement is wrong on all levels. Firstl your idea of traditional Bible theologians would be those that support your understanding of how the Scriptures should be understood. We can go all the way back to traditional Bible theologians such as Augustine who would disagree with you.
Also "God breathed" is not the same thing as God dictated. I agree that God breathes life into the Scriptures and that God reaches out to us through the Scriptures, but when you read it with your understanding you wind up with a perverted view of the nature of God as well as of His desire of how we should live our lives.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 5:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:00 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 05-13-2018 10:06 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 174 of 882 (832878)
05-13-2018 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
05-13-2018 9:09 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:
GDR says God is evil for prescribing public stonings
GDR complains that the death penalty is executed out of public sight.
I suggested that perhaps we should bring back public stonings.
My point is that God as we see His Word, wisdom and nature embodied in Jesus would never have commanded public stonings. It is you that claims that God actually did command public stonings for minor transgressions along with having Him command genocide.
It is the people that commanded public stoning in the name of God that are evil. It is you that says that God commanded public stonings thus declaring Him evil.
My complaint against the death penalty is that it requires that some individual kill another human being when there is an alternative available, and how that will harden the heart of the executioner.
I don't think it should be done at all but I also don't believe that we remain relatively untouched by the horror of an execution as we sit in our comfortable pews seeing justice as having been served, which is not saying that the executions should be done publicly.
Also, public stoning was not just having the public witness the execution, but it involved the whole community going out and throwing rocks at some individual, (for things like picking up firewood on the sabbath), until they have painfully breathed their last.
You believe that God commanded that to happen and yet you have the audacity to say that it is me who calls God evil.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 9:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:44 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 179 of 882 (832883)
05-13-2018 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
05-13-2018 10:44 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:
Picking up firewood on the Sabbath was a horrifically serious sin against God and against the Jewish community and against the promise of the Messiah. Doing any kind of work on the Sabbath, or doing anything like collecting firewood which was necessary for the work of cooking, was a slap in the face of God. The sanctity of the Sabbath as a day of Rest foreshadows the ultimate Rest in Christ promised from Eden. That Rest speaks of total and complete dependence on God rather than ourselves. To call it a minor crime is to misunderstand the most central objective of God's revelation to us.
Yes of course I understood your culturebound and prissily self-righteous denunciation of public stoning as punishment of lawbreakers as well as your fatuously self-deceived idea of who Jesus Christ is. That only makes my joke more of a joke
Actually the Bible has a warning for those who claimed that God had told them to commit genocide and public stonings, as well as for people who understand the Bible as you do. This is from Isaiah 5:20.
quote:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 2:52 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 185 of 882 (832890)
05-13-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
05-13-2018 10:06 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Phat writes:
Which brings us to the debate on how God communicates with humanity, (if in fact He does).
I'd suggest that it is that "still small voice of God", or in Christian terms his Holy Spirit that speaks to our heart mind and conscience through nature, holy books and other people in all aspects of life.
Phat writes:
My belief is that Jesus is alive...in the sense that the Creator of all seen and unseen embodied a human character that has never stayed dead. Consequently, we too are capable of actions warranting eternal life if we follow this embodied Spirit (character) rather than our own carnal imaginations. This gets to the heart of the issue between religion and science on one level.
I think we have to be careful when we talk about our actions that offer us eternal life. Firstly our actions are only a reflection of where are hearts find joy, and our actions don't necessarily reflect out hearts, particularly when you consider that we aren't all blessed with loving parents and peaceful cultures.
I'd also add that when we talk about being saved, it isn't about getting our doctrine right, but about having our hearts set on a trajectory towards having hearts that love unselfishly, and with that given the job of reflecting God's love into His creation.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 05-13-2018 10:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 186 of 882 (832891)
05-13-2018 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
05-13-2018 10:55 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
PaulK writes:
If God spoke to them, then what he said would be the word of God. And surely the phrase every word of God fits better with that than with the idea of the Logos (itself an idea that postdates the books of the Tanakh)
But that isn't how the term "the word of God" is used in the context we are talking about. The Word or Logos is much more than just God speaking to someone but it is the "Word", or again wisdom of God that has existed eternally. It is the "Word" that became flesh, (to quote the Gospel of John), in Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 10:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 5:05 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(2)
Message 188 of 882 (832893)
05-13-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
05-13-2018 2:52 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:
It's very sad to see someone judge the Bible by his own fallible mind,
..and your mind is infallible?
Faith writes:
and turn it against God and against people who know what it really means.
...and you of course know what it really means.
Faith writes:
I can point to what the Bible says and you will just say it doesn't mean what it says, God didn't advocate stoning lawbreakers, God didn't order the death of a whole lawbreaking people, that's the men who wrote it lying about it.
I can point to the Bible verses and you and you will say that it doesn't really mean what it says. Did Jesus really say that we should give away all that we own. Have you done that? Why aren't you out campaigning for public stoning. Here is a quote from Deuteronomy.
quote:
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard. 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
If one of your kids were to come home drunk have you called on your neighbours to get together and stone him to death? You pick and choose and rationalize as everyone does.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 2:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 6:13 PM GDR has replied

  
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