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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 496 of 696 (828074)
02-09-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by ringo
02-09-2018 12:08 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
A couple of hypothetical questions:
  • Are all scientists agnostic by definition?
  • Can there ever be a science regarding miracles?
  • When you went to church, you never found evidence. Will you remain agnostic your entire life or will you declare atheism and stop looking?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 495 by ringo, posted 02-09-2018 12:08 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 497 by ringo, posted 02-09-2018 12:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 498 by Taq, posted 02-09-2018 5:22 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 501 of 696 (828097)
    02-09-2018 7:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 499 by Tangle
    02-09-2018 5:49 PM


    Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
    Im taking this response here.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 499 by Tangle, posted 02-09-2018 5:49 PM Tangle has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 551 of 696 (828358)
    02-16-2018 1:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 550 by ringo
    02-16-2018 11:26 AM


    Re: Consensus
    ringo writes:
    The concept is a religious one.
    So in other words, you prefer the term unexplained or unexplainable because to you, the word miracle is alluding to an explanation?(an unscientific one at that)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 550 by ringo, posted 02-16-2018 11:26 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 553 by ringo, posted 02-17-2018 10:41 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 554 of 696 (828411)
    02-17-2018 12:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 553 by ringo
    02-17-2018 10:41 AM


    Re: Consensus
    So the term is one that believers use, then? What if the scientist happened to be a believer?
    They would keep looking their entire lives as you do or would. They may keep looking, but they most certainly would use the term miracle...personally if not professionally.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 553 by ringo, posted 02-17-2018 10:41 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 558 by ringo, posted 02-20-2018 10:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 576 of 696 (828937)
    02-27-2018 2:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 441 by Stile
    02-02-2018 9:29 AM


    Defining The Issue
    Stile? It seems that you are being asked to weigh in. Is Ringo patently logical or does there need to be a consensus on his part?
    Stile writes:
    If science never makes progress to explain parts (or all) of it... then those parts (or all) of it could continue to be called a miracle by any (reasonable) person.
    Then we get into differentiating between a "miracle" being something-science-cannot-explain-how-it's-going-against-known-standards vs. something-that-is-common-in-the-world.
    Which would, at that point, just be a semantics game on how you want to define "miracle."(...)I doubt the scientific terminology would use the word "miracle" or "magic" or anything like that.
    Flying Bridges are mos def not common....in fact unprecedented, though once it was observed it would have precedence.
    Critics argue that the supposed miracles in the Bible allegedly happened at a time when human understanding and superstition were more prevalent than today. We have since observed David Blaine and Benny Hinn and are as a species more analytical and skeptical than were the observers back then.
    We still don't know for sure that if water were turned into wine today that it could be tested....no scientist barges into Catholic Mass and requests samples of the transubstitution... If a wedding had verifiable barrels of water become wine, however... and the wine could be tested, the event would be unprecedented. All of the many unobservable untestable masses throughout History wouldn't count towards precedence... Same with flying bridges. Many may have been reported throughout History, but only our hypothetical one would have been examined by science.
    As it stands now...the event is unprecedented. (hypothetically) and I think this is Percys basic point---for the moment, the event is unique and special. It is not simply thrown into a generic unexplained for now file that science keeps.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 441 by Stile, posted 02-02-2018 9:29 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 577 by Stile, posted 02-28-2018 8:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 580 by ringo, posted 02-28-2018 2:25 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 601 of 696 (829918)
    03-17-2018 4:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 600 by ringo
    03-15-2018 11:41 AM


    Po-tay-toe Po-tah-toe
    Percy writes:
    If the evidence leads to a miracle, watcha gonna do?
    ringo writes:
    The evidence can't lead to a miracle any more than it can lead to Narnia. Miracles and Narnia are not defined by science.
    So evidently ringo proclaims that no scientist ever would dare use that word.
    In a way, he is claiming that the rules of being in the scientists club are tightly defined.
    But where is this topic going, anyway?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 600 by ringo, posted 03-15-2018 11:41 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 603 by ringo, posted 03-18-2018 2:35 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 608 of 696 (830092)
    03-21-2018 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 606 by ringo
    03-20-2018 12:27 PM


    Re: Consensus
    I'm not sure whose side I take here...Percy's argument feels better, but maybe I just can't stand to see Ringo winning every argument!
    Let's break it down.
    First of all, we use terms like "what if science" and "what if religion".....but we are talking about people. Individuals. And they may or may not be religious. And they may or may not be scientific.
    Seeing as how this topic is The science of miracles we are faced with both qualities. Hypothetically we assemble a team of EvC patrons.
    Led by Percy, the team also includes ringo, Phat, Faith, Tangle, and jar.
    The first assignment is to examine a Bridge that mysteriously seemed to have changed location.
    What would be each member's initial reaction to hearing the news of this event?
    Next question:
    Who would be paying this team to investigate?
    What would be the expectations of the team?
    Even in science, the dollar often determines the direction that any given team will take regarding an investigation.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 606 by ringo, posted 03-20-2018 12:27 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 610 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 3:29 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 619 of 696 (830160)
    03-23-2018 5:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 618 by Porkncheese
    03-23-2018 2:26 AM


    Re: Haha so funny
    and how have you been doing? studying i hope....

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 618 by Porkncheese, posted 03-23-2018 2:26 AM Porkncheese has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 645 by Porkncheese, posted 04-03-2018 8:18 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 623 of 696 (830185)
    03-24-2018 12:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 622 by ringo
    03-24-2018 11:47 AM


    Re: Consensus
    seems to me as if both you and Percy essentially are saying the same thing.
    ringo,to Percy writes:
    The very fact that you're talking about nomenclature at all proves it. There is nothing happening that needs new nomenclature.
    *After looking up the definition of the word...*
    OK, lets say you were a scientist who worked for the police. A call came in. We need you to rush to the scene. An event just happened and people are describing it as nothing short of miraculous. We need you to investigate.
    Are you going to turn down the job simply because you "don't do miracles"? My point is that the definition of a given event may be described differently by some than by others. You cant hold Percys feet to the fire simply because he uses terminology (even hypothetically) that you dont use, nor can you speak on behalf of all science. If you arrive at the scene, does it matter whether a shaman actually grew new limbs or whether a huckster swapped out mannequins for real people? You will still investigate the scene the same way using the same methodology. Let people call things as they wish, and stick to your approach for dealing with it.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 622 by ringo, posted 03-24-2018 11:47 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 624 by ringo, posted 03-24-2018 1:13 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 633 of 696 (830298)
    03-26-2018 1:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 631 by ringo
    03-26-2018 12:16 PM


    Re: Consensus
    ringo writes:
    If you've read anything that suggests that scientists consider the possibility of miracles or magic, feel free to cite examples.
    OK here is one.
    Professor Stephen Barr Interview
    University Of Delaware
    Evidently, Professor Barr has not only more scientific knowledge than most of us here but is unafraid to discuss miracles alongside science. Next question?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 631 by ringo, posted 03-26-2018 12:16 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 635 by ringo, posted 03-27-2018 11:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 646 of 696 (830563)
    04-03-2018 8:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 645 by Porkncheese
    04-03-2018 8:18 AM


    Re: Haha so funny
    P&C writes:
    Its been quite a challenge so far. Like I thought I was good at Maths before this. Hahaha. How wrong I was.
    But all in all, I'm keeping up with it, learning heaps and doing well on exams and assignments. Money is something that concerns me a bit atm cos, well I don't have much of it. Yet.
    But I still come in here to have a read and a laugh once in a while but leave the debating to you guys. I'm still agnostic but (a rare species)
    Being agnostic is a healthy place for you to be in college. I not only appreciate your honesty, but I think that focusing on your studies and getting them under your belt is more important than any grand search for God at this point in your life. #Props
    And yourself Phat one. How have u been traveling???
    I'm a rebel, P&C. I am journaling my latest health quest in my Health 4 Life~The Science Behind Consumption thread. The peanut gallery is attacking me as well for arrogantly declaring the medical establishment to be in error regarding treatment of diabetes, but I've got too much at stake to let go of this one...just as I have never thrown God away, as jar suggests that I do. But let's conclude my post by saying something about this thread we are in, shall we?
    Percy writes:
    But responding to this old argument yet again, the actual "what if" is "What if science encountered a true miracle?" The George Washington Bridge lifting free of its moorings and floating 50 miles up the Hudson was offered as an example of something scientists would view as miraculous, because the phenomena displayed would be so obviously in violation of the natural laws of the universe that they couldn't be viewed as mere anomalies. If examples are getting in the way of your consideration of the "what if" then ignore the examples and just consider the question, "What if science encountered a true miracle?"
    A true miracle would occur if Pork&Cheese manages to get all of his homework done over Spring Break and graduates college with his agnostic mind intact rather than resorting to defending a God Who cannot and need not be defended. The science involved would be his self-discipline regarding understanding his studies and applying them to the courses with which he is in.
    By the way, P&C, what courses are you taking this semester?
    Are you taking any science courses? If so, do you think that it is possible for an event to occur that known science could not explain, and, if so, should it be labeled as a miracle?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
    Edited by Phat, : spelling

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 645 by Porkncheese, posted 04-03-2018 8:18 AM Porkncheese has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 652 of 696 (831031)
    04-11-2018 11:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 651 by Percy
    04-11-2018 9:26 AM


    Understanding through Discussion
    This thread and conversation are a prime example of how the few of us who are left on board the aging sea vessel SS EvC attempt to communicate with each other, understand each other, refute each other, and (God forbid) agree with each other!
    a few hypotheticals:
    Faith: God exists! You would understand it if only you saw the internal proof!
    Percy: The evidence clearly shows otherwise, dear Faith...but you will never understand my POV because you have only a desire to state your own POV.
    Ringo: Slowpitch it to me, baby. I knock em out of the park every time! The evidence clearly shows this.
    Percy: But what if a hypothetical situation came up which we couldn't explain?
    Ringo: Then we would keep looking for answers. Everything can be explained eventually.
    Percy: But what if the conclusion was outside the realm of known science?
    Ringo: Be patient. Nothing is ever really outside this realm...we simply need to catch up to it.
    Percy: Cant you discuss anything instead of concluding everything and defining it for us?
    Ringo: I define therefore I AM. Next question?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 651 by Percy, posted 04-11-2018 9:26 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 654 by ringo, posted 04-11-2018 3:37 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 655 of 696 (831072)
    04-11-2018 5:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 654 by ringo
    04-11-2018 3:37 PM


    Re: Understanding through Discussion
    Phat writes:
    Ringo: Slowpitch it to me, baby. I knock em out of the park every time! The evidence clearly shows this.
    ringo writes:
    Wrong. All I promise is to swing at all of them.
    Phat writes:
    Ringo: Then we would keep looking for answers. Everything can be explained eventually.
    ringo writes:
    Wrong. All I say is that we'll keep swinging.
    Maybe that's the issue then, between you and Percy. Percy wants you to play a game of hypothetical catch and toss, where we discuss hypotheticals whereas you seek to swing at them and knock them out of the park. In essence, you are so focused on defining the parameters of the conversation that there can be no discussion...only Ringo attempting to finalize a conclusion every single pitch.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 654 by ringo, posted 04-11-2018 3:37 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 656 by ringo, posted 04-12-2018 11:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 662 of 696 (831179)
    04-13-2018 4:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 659 by ringo
    04-13-2018 12:18 PM


    Re: Consensus
    The only issue that I have is that based on your suggested definition of how a scientist should think, no scientist would ever become a believer.
    They would never separate belief from science and thus all scientists would be atheists or agnostics. Which clearly isn't true.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 659 by ringo, posted 04-13-2018 12:18 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 664 by ringo, posted 04-14-2018 12:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 670 of 696 (831716)
    04-23-2018 1:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 669 by ringo
    04-23-2018 11:42 AM


    Re: Consensus
    although you won't allow Percys hypothetical to even be introduced. You seem to be defining the terms of the hypothetical rather than going with his terms.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 669 by ringo, posted 04-23-2018 11:42 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 671 by ringo, posted 04-23-2018 1:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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