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Author | Topic: Religious Special Pleading | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Astrophile Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 92 From: United Kingdom Joined: |
ringo writes: Maybe it's because I'm old-school but in my experience, men don't look. Men don't even make eye contact in a public washroom. Again, I agree that generally men don't look. However, small boys may be less inhibited.
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ringo Member (Idle past 727 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
My contention is that as long as the parent is generally aware of whether or not the child is harmed, we shouldn't concern ourselves with "permission" - i.e. we should not infringe on individual rights in general because of the possibility of harm in a few cases. My contention is that this does not help us in determining whether a child is harmed and thus whether the practice should be permitted.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9624 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
ringo writes: we should not infringe on individual rights in general because of the possibility of harm in a few cases. Individuals do not have a general right to harm anybody. Cutting the skin off the penis is a harm in ALL cases. In some cases the harm causes death.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 727 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Clearly not. Cutting the skin off the penis is a harm in ALL cases.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9624 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Ringo writes: Clearly not. quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
My contention is that as long as the parent is generally aware of whether or not the child is harmed, we shouldn't concern ourselves with "permission" - i.e. we should not infringe on individual rights in general because of the possibility of harm in a few cases. And if it was certain that it was going to be harmful in all cases, would you change your mind? To reiterate - I am saying we should not infringe on individual rights. The rights of the child. I'm saying a child's right to bodily integrity outweighs a parent's right to impose cosmetic surgery on them.
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ringo Member (Idle past 727 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
"Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?"![]() It's the difference between them choosing skydiving and you throwing them out of a plane. The difference is their choice.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 727 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
You can't decide for somebody else what is "harmful" to them.
And if it was certain that it was going to be harmful in all cases, would you change your mind? Modulous writes:
What you're saying is that the child's right should outweigh the parents'. In reality it doesn't, and for good reason. I'm saying a child's right to bodily integrity outweighs a parent's right to impose cosmetic surgery on them.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Modulous Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
You can't decide for somebody else what is "harmful" to them. You did it earlier is this thread, here are some examples of you doing this:
quote: quote: quote: etc.
What you're saying is that the child's right should outweigh the parents A child's right to bodily integrity should outweigh the parent's right to perform cosmetic surgery on the child. A child's right to life doesn't necessarily outweigh a parent's right to life. A child's right to privacy should not outweigh a parent's obligations to protect the child.
In reality it doesn't, and for good reason. Except in every case other than male circumcision, the child's right to bodily integrity does outweigh the parent's right to perform cosmetic surgery on them. And for good reason.
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ringo Member (Idle past 727 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
I said that "you" can't decide. Those examples are decided by consensus of society. In the example of circumcision, consensus of society doesn't agree with you.
ringo writes:
You did it earlier is this thread, here are some examples of you doing this:
You can't decide for somebody else what is "harmful" to them.quote: quote: quote: Modulous writes:
Thanks for your opinion. I'll file it with the others.
A child's right to bodily integrity should outweigh the parent's right to perform cosmetic surgery on the child. A child's right to life doesn't necessarily outweigh a parent's right to life. A child's right to privacy should not outweigh a parent's obligations to protect the child. Modulous writes:
The child's overall well-being is the responsibility of the parent. "Bodily integrity" appears to be an excuse for special pleading on your part. Except in every case other than male circumcision, the child's right to bodily integrity does outweigh the parent's right to perform cosmetic surgery on them.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Modulous Member (Idle past 300 days) Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I said that "you" can't decide. Those examples are decided by consensus of society. I'm not doing anything differently. I'm trying to adjust the consensus through discussion.
In the example of circumcision, consensus of society doesn't agree with you. Question: Was slavery only harmful after the consensus agreed it was?
The child's overall well-being is the responsibility of the parent. "Bodily integrity" appears to be an excuse for special pleading on your part.
How is it special pleading? It's the same principle I use in the case of cutting off any other part of a child.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9624 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Ringo writes: You could not have picked a worse example. Haven't you heard that Jews practice circumcision? The quote is about what you do to them, not what they choose for themselves. It's quite a talent you have, pretending to misunderstand stuff then twisting it around. It's extremely irritating and totally pointless. Anyway, the play is about someone demanding that which is lawful but unreasonable and it's the Jew wanting to do the harm - carving off his pound of flesh. But no matter. The point of the quote - as I'm sure you know - was that which was in bold; if you prick us do we not bleed. You said that children are not harmed by circumcision. It was an utterly stupid statement - they are pricked and they bleed. And they scream. That is harm by any definition at all.
quote: My bold. Infant Responses to CircumcisionJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9624 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Jehovah's Witnesses are in the news here again for various kinds of child sexual abuse within their community. The Guardian has over a hundred cases and more are being uncovered. In yet another form of religious special pleading JWs have their own internal 'legal' system of dealing with criminality in their community, but their 'court' requires two phyical witnesses to a crime, so guess what, child abuse, domestic violence and rape allegations virtually never succeed and are raely made. This stupidity and complacence is apparently scriptural.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
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ringo Member (Idle past 727 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
In a way, yes. You seem to define "harm" in some sort of absolute sense. I don't. Slavery, circumcision, etc. are dealt with by society when/if they are deemed harmful to society.
Question: Was slavery only harmful after the consensus agreed it was? Modulous writes:
Hair? Fingernails? If you want to hear a child cry, try cutting his fingernails. (I haven't had a haircut since 1972 and I still hate cutting my nails.) It's the same principle I use in the case of cutting off any other part of a child.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 727 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
So you don't see the irony? Shylock was a Jew. He was clearly not speaking against circumcision. The point of the quote - as I'm sure you know - was that which was in bold; if you prick us do we not bleed. You said that children are not harmed by circumcision. It was an utterly stupid statement - they are pricked and they bleed. And they scream. You're doing the same thing as the creationists who quote Darwin to disprove evolution.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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