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Author Topic:   Astronomers See Evidence of Something Unexpected in the Universe
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 57 of 86 (829795)
03-14-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taq
03-13-2018 4:38 PM


Do you have any objections to using these standard candles to measure distances to distant galaxies?
No objection at all. However, they do not get at the point I was raising.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Taq, posted 03-14-2018 12:47 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 60 of 86 (829852)
03-15-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Taq
03-14-2018 12:47 PM


Is there something you object to in these measurements of redshift and distance,...
The measurements are fine. They are good science.
..., or the conclusions drawn from them?
That's what I am questioning.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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 Message 58 by Taq, posted 03-14-2018 12:47 PM Taq has replied

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 Message 61 by Taq, posted 03-15-2018 2:57 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 62 of 86 (829863)
03-15-2018 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Taq
03-15-2018 2:57 PM


So what mechanisms are you pointing to that could create this wavelength independent redshift that appears to increase with distance from the Milky Way?
I am not pointing to mechanisms.
I am suggesting that conclusions about expansion are premature. We do not know nearly enough to jump to such conclusions.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 65 of 86 (829917)
03-17-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Taq
03-15-2018 4:14 PM


Would you agree that all of the observations we have thus far are consistent with expansion?
Yes, as far as I know.
But they seem not to conclusively demonstrate expansion.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 66 of 86 (829920)
03-17-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Taq
03-16-2018 11:00 AM


Re: Independent Lines of Evidence
If you take red-shifted light, and red-shift it even more, you get microwave radiation. So I don't see that as independent evidence.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 68 of 86 (829922)
03-17-2018 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
03-17-2018 4:35 PM


I don't need to play word games.
I don't see that big bang theory does anything for us. So better to call it an hypothesis, rather than a theory.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Modulous, posted 03-17-2018 6:04 PM nwr has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 71 of 86 (829934)
03-18-2018 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Modulous
03-17-2018 6:04 PM


You think utility determines whether something is a theory or a hypothesis?
We use "theory" too casually.
A theory should establish standards for research in the area. The Hubble red shift did that, by providing a new standard for measuring distance to remote galaxies. I'm not seeing anything comparable with BB.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 72 of 86 (829935)
03-18-2018 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Percy
03-17-2018 6:17 PM


What does "conclusively demonstrate" mean to you in science?
It would have been better if I had used "convincingly".

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 81 of 86 (830074)
03-20-2018 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Percy
03-18-2018 4:13 PM


And if one considers that the response in Message 66 was wholly *unconvincing* in terms of rebuttal or any indication the evidence described was understood.
I am not trying to convince other people to agree with me. I am only explaining why I remain unconvinced.
Mustn't one concede that expansion has been *convincingly* demonstrated to science, though of course still tentative and open to change?
No. Because "science" does not name any entity that is capable of being convinced.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 82 of 86 (830075)
03-20-2018 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Modulous
03-18-2018 3:12 PM


I think the classic "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment." is fine, and not at all 'casual'.
Personally, I don't consider that to be satisfactory.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 84 of 86 (830079)
03-20-2018 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Taq
03-19-2018 11:39 AM


Then it just comes down to how stubbornly you will hold onto a position.
Clearly wrong. I am not holding onto a position. I am patiently waiting to see what other evidence shows up.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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