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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 207 of 331 (765645)
08-03-2015 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
08-03-2015 8:56 AM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
First of all, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it can and does not happen. I realize your position on the issue, however.
In What Is Christianity you claim that GOD IS. You claim that Jesus died for everyone, including atheists. Thus unlike most of the chapters in Christianity, you dislike the idea of a GOD who "picks" who shall be saved based on certain criteria. (Such as having communion with only some of the people. )
Based on your own belief and your choice to reject much of the Gospel of John as inspirational, there really isn't a way to explain anything to you in regards to Spiritual versus Natural.
The point of contention between us seems to be your general disdain for
Evangelical Christianity as practiced and believed in much of America and the world today. You claim that GOD likely doesnt care whether or not we even believe in "Her".
You also claim that in order for anything to make sense about GOD, Jesus while among us was only human. It seems that to you, Christianity is nothing more than a willful human practice and that there is no mystery, no woo factor and no spiritual dynamic that only some of the people understand.
Here is where we agree. GOD IS. Where we disagree is the nature of such a Being.
WHY BELIEVE? By Stephen Evans writes:
In short, the God of Christianity is highly individualized.(...) Such a God is highly embarrassing and irritating to many, precisely because He is so very personal. It is all well and good to believe in a God who is thought of in vague terms as "a moral force" or "the power of being." Such a God will probably not interfere too much with my basic plans and values.
In summation, my idea and belief about Christianity is about a knowable God who desires to commune with humanity, whereas your idea is about humanity only needing a basic charge and responsibility to do unto others...while God is unknowable and largely unimportant in daily life.
Will you finally after being asked for over a decade tell us how someone can know they are in communion with God and how God can actually do anything a human cannot?
People can believe. They will never objectively know that they are in communion, until and unless they experience it. As far as God can do something a human cannot, I can only say that such a question is ridiculous at best.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 08-03-2015 8:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:12 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 209 of 331 (766418)
08-18-2015 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
08-04-2015 9:12 AM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
jar writes:
So you say that you can do anything that god can do?
No. I believe that Jesus was and is God. Despite this, Jesus didn't walk around like superman or like Jim Carey in Bruce Almighty.
I agree with you that Jesus was human. Whether or not he was also God is irrelevant because he never used that---as far as we know---to any unfair advantage. What he did have was an intuition into the hearts and minds of others. He also had a strong relationship with his father, creator of all seen and unseen.
Chambers describes it thus:
quote:
Have you been asking God what He is going to do? He will never tell you. God does not tell you what He is going to do He reveals to you who He is. Do you believe in a miracle-working God, and will you go out in complete surrender to Him until you are not surprised one iota by anything He does?
Perhaps you feel and believe that doing your best every day is as close as you can get to communion. Your analytical mind has never understood communion and I for one dont understand it enough to explain it to you. I am still learning Who He Is.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:12 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 4:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 210 of 331 (828197)
02-13-2018 12:26 PM


Chris Rosebrough
Rosebrough is a conservative Lutheran who is not out to make a ton of money as Benny Hinn did. He interviews Hinns Nephew and the conversation exemplifies some key points regarding mainstream Club Christian versus Evangelical Club Money.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 211 of 331 (828199)
02-13-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ringo
04-30-2007 4:54 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
ringo writes:
What if "the enemy" itself is just a figment of your imagination?
What if those of us without tinfoil hats are not being lied to?
Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?
No, I believe that we are the ones who are needy. God is gracious enough to put up with us. You may have a narrower brush than does the Soviet Union, but I'm not so sure....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 04-30-2007 4:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Stile, posted 02-13-2018 1:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 02-14-2018 2:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 331 (828213)
02-13-2018 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by jar
02-13-2018 4:23 PM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
Stile writes:
Perhaps God is so incredible that He is there for all of those who need them, and doesn't get in the way for those who don't.
On the other hand...
That's what is so great about our discussions. There is always another hand....
jar writes:
"... He reveals to you who He is." Nonsense. How does God reveal who He is and why are there so many different and mutually exclusive contradictory revelations of who It is?
Though I agree with your assessment of the fact that there are always many different and mutually exclusive and contradictory revelations or descriptions of God, i would also argue that there are many similar descriptions. From my own personal experience, I can usually intuitively discern who has actually spent a lot of time praying and questioning God rather than simply parroting what the evangelical industrial complex touts as the party line. You often ask me how I know it is God and not simply a bad burrito. My answer is that strictly speaking, I wouldnt have any concrete evidence apart from the fact that if it were a bad burrito, many people would have suffered similar food poisoning regarding their descriptions, actions, and explanations regarding the God whom they market.
Stile writes:
Perhaps the universe is so incredible that God exists for those who need Him (faith, belief, imagination...), and God does not exist for those who don't.
I agree that this scenario could certainly be possible. I believe that God is willing to commune with those who seek communion through prayer, meditation, or even daily action...but as to why God is willing, I can only say that I believe it is Gods nature to offer assistance, comfort, and encouragement.
I think it is logical that God would simply leave those who prefer to be left alone to themselves...though I believe that everyone encounters God at some point ...perhaps for some after death. Perhaps for some of us, we only encounter God through other humans and are judged based on our interactions, motives, and actions. In my previous video, I show Costi Hinn being interviewed by Chris Rosebrough. One cannot simply label every TV, Radio, or online Pastor as a joke. Judge them by their fruits. Someone once said that Hollywood is like a bowl of cereal...full of fruits, nuts, and flakes! So too with evangelical Christianity, but there are some...a minority to be sure....who have sound and/or supportable doctrine.
Finally a question for all of us to ponder: What Have I Done Today?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 4:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 6:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 216 of 331 (828216)
02-13-2018 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jar
02-13-2018 6:29 PM


Discernment Ministry
jar writes:
All of the evidence shows that many people would have suffered similar food poisoning regarding their descriptions, actions, and explanations regarding the God whom they market.
Which brings up Mob Mentality of a large group.
quote:
When people are part of a group, they often experience deindividuation, or a loss of self-awareness. When people deindividuate, they are less likely to follow normal restraints and inhibitions and more likely to lose their sense of individual identity. Groups can generate a sense of emotional excitement, which can lead to the provocation of behaviors that a person would not typically engage in if alone. Think about the last sporting event or concert you attended. It’s unlikely that you would have been yelling or singing the way you were if you were the only person doing it! The group seems to make some behaviors acceptable that would not be acceptable otherwise.(...)The greater individuals feel like they identify with a group, the greater the pressures for them to conform and deindividuate become. (...)Certain situations also play a role, such as when resources are scarce, we are surrounded by like-minded people, and/or when emotions are aroused.
This would explain how many members of the CCOI learn their behavior and beliefs through group dynamics rather than individual critical thought and scholarship.
When the Bible is quoted, apart from Sunday school classes or Bible Studies...and even in those sometimes...the meaning is generally conveyed as a given consensus.
As I commented before, however, not all teachers are void of sound instruction and support behind their views and beliefs. The Discernment Ministry of conservative Lutheran Chris Rosebrough is based on solid Lutheran theology.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 6:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 8:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 218 of 331 (828222)
02-14-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
02-13-2018 8:06 PM


Re: Discernment Ministry
Did you even read the link or know who Chris Rosebrough is? Or as usual, just repeating your own pet assertions about US Christian religion in general?
The Discernment Ministry is nothing but a "Not My Cult" cult.
So even if I proved to you that Chris was mainstream Lutheran, you would assert that Lutheranism is a Not My Club Club? Granted Lutheranism is not the same as Episcopalianism, but tio label it a cult is simply advertising your own tendency to lump much of US mainstream Christianity into a "cult of ignorance" while at the same time repeating your own belief.
Edited by Phat, : added point
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 8:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 02-14-2018 12:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 220 by dwise1, posted 02-14-2018 2:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 222 of 331 (828415)
02-17-2018 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by ringo
02-14-2018 2:52 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
ringo writes:
Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore.
In a sense, I *do* see God that way. I figure that He foreknows our destiny and does not see a promising outcome.
I believe that He desires that we stay alive and not become extinct.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 02-14-2018 2:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 02-17-2018 3:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 02-20-2018 11:36 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 225 of 331 (828491)
02-20-2018 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by AlexCaledin
02-19-2018 12:00 PM


Castrates
They don't think that there is any difference between believers and nonbelievers and there is really no way to prove that there is.....
I know where you are coming from, however.
1 Corinthians 3:18-19 writes:
1 Cor 3:18-19
18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by AlexCaledin, posted 02-19-2018 12:00 PM AlexCaledin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 02-20-2018 6:43 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 229 of 331 (828755)
02-23-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ringo
02-20-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
ringo writes:
Let's try again: "Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore."
In fact I DO see God as a parental figure for society. We are often referred to as His children.
And any child worth their salt always communicates with their aged parents...Honor thy father and Mother...dont simply grow up and isolate yourself with your own family. The concept of the extended family seems missing in the West...one of our sins.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 02-20-2018 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 02-23-2018 5:35 PM Phat has replied
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 02-24-2018 11:16 AM Phat has replied
 Message 236 by ramoss, posted 02-25-2018 12:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 232 of 331 (828806)
02-24-2018 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by ringo
02-24-2018 11:16 AM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
I believe that God wants us to need Him. He of course needs nothing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 02-24-2018 11:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Rrhain, posted 02-25-2018 6:49 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 233 of 331 (828807)
02-24-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
02-23-2018 5:35 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
It must be convenient for you to be your own judge. Isnt it nice to wipe away all of your own sins?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 02-23-2018 5:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 02-24-2018 9:41 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 244 by Stile, posted 03-07-2018 2:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 331 (828855)
02-25-2018 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by ramoss
02-25-2018 12:23 PM


Assuming The Christian God Is A Parental Figure
Let's run with this a minute and presuppose that the Christian God is similar to a parental figure.
If you were a parent, which would you be prouder of. A child who always called you to have you tell them what to do at all times,
Or, a child, taking the lessons you taught, applying them properly, was able to make their own way in the world and be successful, with the fruit of their own labor?
We first need to arrive at a consensus of what would be considered successful and whether such a life could be approved by this God.
Todays Christians have many different varieties of jobs---from Janitor to Investment Banker. Virtually all claim to have a relationship or at least an understanding of Who God is and how they understand Him. On what grounds do they believe He approves of their choices, actions, and professions in life?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by ramoss, posted 02-25-2018 12:23 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 239 of 331 (828858)
02-25-2018 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ringo
02-25-2018 1:10 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
ringo writes:
So, does God feel inadequate when some of us don't acknowledge any need for Him?
Im not sure how He would feel. Puzzled comes to mind. (But thats my human take on it) The guy on the corner counts on you for money (the fruits of your labor)
Does God count on the same from us? Not so much because He needs anything, but just so His people all get fed. (not sure he would look the other way when the guy bought drugs with your hard earned dollar, but thats between the guy and God. )
To summarize, I believe that God is present and aware of our lives, that He has an interest in our success, and that He makes himself available---through prayer or meditation---in the event that we do need to call home for advice, encouragement, and comfort.
Once again, though---we need to nail down what God would consider to be defined as success for us--His spiritual offspring. (and as to what He would think of those who did not wish to be part of such a spiritual communion, what alternative are they envisioning?)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 331 (829247)
03-04-2018 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
02-25-2018 3:50 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
The good father feeds his children with knowledge instead of bread?
My Father provided plenty of bread but not so much knowledge. I was forced to find that on my own, though when a man has a full stomach he is not as desperate to find ways to earn his own bread.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 02-25-2018 3:50 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:41 AM Phat has replied

  
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