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Author Topic:   Astronomers See Evidence of Something Unexpected in the Universe
nwr
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Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 7 of 86 (828905)
02-26-2018 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tanypteryx
02-23-2018 10:44 PM


This is interesting, but not unexpected.
I should clarify that. I am not say that I expected what they are seeing. Rather, I am say that I expected that evidence would show up suggesting something unexpected.
Some folk will remember that I have expressed some doubts about big bang cosmology. Percy didn't like that, as I recall.
I have agreed all along that there is cosmological red shift. I have questioned the big bang view, that cosmological red shift is due to expansion. I think it more likely that cosmological red shift is cosmological. That is to say, the red shift we see has to do with the nature of the cosmos, and is not simply a matter of expansion.
Talk of "the expanding universe" implicitly assumes that there is a yardstick (for measuring distance) which can be used throughout the cosmos and for all time. I cannot see any reason to believe that. We use a local yardstick defined in terms of local features. And it may well be that every location can have a local yardstick. But I cannot see any certainty that we can put these together to have a cosmos-wide yardstick. It might be that there are local distance functions at every location, but no single distance function that can be used across the entire cosmos. And there could be similar issues with the measurement of time and with the measurement of other physical properties.
It is standard physics, that entropy is increasing. We hear of the heat death of the universe. But maybe entropy is not increasing. If we fix our yardsticks (and other measuring standards) for today, and project, we see reasons to believe entropy is increasing. But if we could time-travel to 1000 years into the future, we might find that the yardstick has also changed over that time, and that the total amount of entropy as measured by the new measuring standards of 1000 years in the future is the same as the total amount of entropy as measured by our own standards at this time. That is to say, maybe entropy can only be a localized property localized to a time and place, and maybe there isn't any single standard for entropy that can be extended throughout the cosmos.
To say all of this differently, it may well turn out that what know about the nature of the cosmos is miniscule in comparison to what we do not know about the nature of the cosmos.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-26-2018 9:53 PM nwr has replied
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 02-27-2018 11:34 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 11 by Taq, posted 02-28-2018 4:14 PM nwr has replied
 Message 45 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2018 7:47 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 9 of 86 (828911)
02-26-2018 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tanypteryx
02-26-2018 9:53 PM


If we are mistaken about the Big Bang and red shift will it make a difference or limit the chances of future discoveries? Will we be able to figure out that we are wrong and that we are stuck in an illusion?
We are mainly restricted by the limits of our access.
Our main mistake is in our understanding of "objective". People take it for granted that there is an objective human-independent world. But everything that we know about is a projection from our subjective experience. What we call "objective" is really those aspects of subjective experience that humans can share with one another. And we project that to what we take to be a human independent cosmos. But perhaps it is not nearly as human independent as we like to think that it is.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 15 of 86 (829029)
02-28-2018 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taq
02-28-2018 4:14 PM


The yardstick is the speed of light, spectra, and type Ia supernovae.
To use the speed of light as a yardstick, you need a fixed clock. But we don't have one.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 16 of 86 (829030)
02-28-2018 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
02-28-2018 4:44 PM


I think Nwr's objection is more epistemological. He might agree that on one level what you describe is objective while seeing that objectivity dissolve into mere human consensus and assumptions on deeper levels.
Yes, exactly.
This isn't necessarily a problem for us. But it is not what people have assumed about objectivity. And it should cause us to question how far we can project local knowledge to the cosmos as a whole.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 19 of 86 (829115)
03-03-2018 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taq
03-02-2018 4:19 PM


Due to the fact that E=mc^2 we would see major changes in stellar activity, color, spectra, and isotope production if the speed of light were different elsewhere in the cosmos.
You have completely missed the point.
I am not arguing or suggesting that the speed of light is different elsewhere in the cosmos.
Rather, I am questioning the meaningfulness of even talking about whether the speed of light is different in other parts of the cosmos.
Everything that we say about the speed of light depends on earth-based standards. I am questioning whether those earth-based standards are extensible throughout the entire cosmos.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by caffeine, posted 03-03-2018 4:23 PM nwr has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 22 of 86 (829213)
03-04-2018 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by caffeine
03-03-2018 4:23 PM


I can't help but notice that you're making exactly the same argument as creation in the Falsifying a young universe thread.
No, I am not making that argument at all.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 26 of 86 (829309)
03-05-2018 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
03-04-2018 2:57 PM


Creation's expression is more primitive and he uses different terminology, so summarizing, Creation believes we can only know the laws of nature for the local region, what he calls the "fishbowl" that he concedes extends only as far as our deepest space probes, the Voyagers.
I'll admit that I haven't been following that thread. However, that sounds like a typical creationist argument, that laws might be different elsewhere. I see scientific laws as human constructs, so "might be different elsewhere" isn't anything I would argue.
Google for "hairy billiard ball". There are functions that cannot be extended to the whole space from a local region, depending on the topology of the whole space. That's closer to what I am arguing.
In any case, I'm not trying to falsify anything. I'm only expressing skepticism about how much we claim to know.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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 Message 23 by Percy, posted 03-04-2018 2:57 PM Percy has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 30 of 86 (829366)
03-06-2018 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
03-06-2018 8:05 AM


This seems not just very similar but identical to your position that we can't know whether scientific laws are different in other parts of the cosmos.
Yes, that does indeed seem similar to what you are characterizing as my position.
The only problem here, is that it is not at all my position.
You and Creation also have the same issue of identifying a boundary between the "here" where we understand how scientific laws operate and the "out there" where we don't.
Again, that is not my position.
While the terminology and descriptions differ, to me your and Creation's positions are one and the same.
No, they are very different.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 32 of 86 (829368)
03-06-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Son Goku
03-06-2018 4:56 AM


Unless I am missing the point General Relativity actually assumes that standard clocks and rulers don't exist and then makes predictions for what we should see here based on that.
Yes, I agree with that.
Thus it could be that local clocks and rulers show that the cosmos appears to be expanding locally, yet there is no meaning of "expanding" that applies to the cosmos as a whole.
To be clear: I'm suggesting everywhere in the cosmos, local observers might see the local appearance of expanding. And yet that does not make "expanding" a meaningful term to apply to the cosmos as a whole.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 41 of 86 (829416)
03-06-2018 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taq
03-06-2018 5:16 PM


If the expansion was local then all galaxies outside of the local area would be redshifted by the same amount, but they aren't.
Sigh!
This is still a complete misunderstanding of what I have been saying.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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 Message 37 by Taq, posted 03-06-2018 5:16 PM Taq has replied

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 Message 42 by Taq, posted 03-07-2018 1:14 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 46 of 86 (829543)
03-08-2018 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Taq
03-07-2018 1:14 PM


You can hardly blame us if you then refuse to clear up any misunderstandings.
I'm not blaming anyone. I've tried to clear up misunderstandings, but it hasn't worked.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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 Message 42 by Taq, posted 03-07-2018 1:14 PM Taq has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 48 of 86 (829564)
03-09-2018 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
03-09-2018 12:12 PM


So what is "local"? Is it the Earth, the solar system, our arm of the Milky Way, the Milky Way itself, or is it the Virgo supercluster that our galaxy belongs to?
Pretty much the wrong question.
I applied "local" to our yardstick. Whether or not Virgo counts as local is not relevant to that.
Look around your town. You can describe it quite well in "flat earth" terms. All you need is a suitable coordinate grid.
You can then extend that "flat earth" grid to include the next town, even the whole county, and perhaps the whole state.
What you cannot do, is extend it to the entire earth. And the reason is that the topology of the sphere does not permit such an extension.
I was making a point about an analogous problem.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 03-09-2018 12:12 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 50 of 86 (829570)
03-09-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Taq
03-09-2018 3:30 PM


If you are saying that the laws of physics are different outside of a local area then your definition of local matters.
But that is NOT what I have been saying.
Also, you don't have to move very far to find empirical devations from a flat Earth. With sensitive enough instruments you could probably measure the curvature of the Earth over a distance of less than a mile.
I keep wondering why it is so important to you to deliberately misconstrue what I am saying.
I said nothing about "empirical deviations from a flat earth". I said nothing about "the curvature of the Earth".

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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 Message 49 by Taq, posted 03-09-2018 3:30 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Taq, posted 03-09-2018 5:55 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 52 of 86 (829702)
03-12-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Taq
03-09-2018 5:55 PM


Is this what you meant?
No.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Taq, posted 03-09-2018 5:55 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 03-12-2018 12:22 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6478
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 54 of 86 (829706)
03-12-2018 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taq
03-12-2018 12:22 PM


I have already attempted to explain -- without success.
There's no point in trying again.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 03-12-2018 12:22 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 03-12-2018 1:50 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 56 by Taq, posted 03-13-2018 4:38 PM nwr has replied

  
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