The "science" of Miracles

As I said before, you're the only one who doesn't seem to understand. The rest of us seem to be on the same page. Nothing is a miracle unless you believe in miracles. That's why we have to define miracles in terms of belief: A miracle is something that somebody believes has supernatural causes. Whether or not it is "possible" is irrelevant.

There's no such thing as "not explicable by natural or scientific laws". It may be currently not explicable, like a flashlight to an illiterate Pacific islander, but we can not predict what might be explicable tomorrow. The first topic of discussion would be, "Did it really happen? Was the observation accurate?" We have that discussion about UFOs all the time.

So you are saying that literally, everything will someday be explainable? You are saying that there will never be anything that we won't someday understand? Sounds like deification of human wisdom, again! When will you ever learn?

No. I'm saying that nobody can predict what will be explainable. I've answered the same question to you many times. When will YOU ever learn?

Define "rest of us." Miracles don't have to have a supernatural cause. Accoding to Wikipedia, a miracle "may be attributed to a supernatural being (a deity), magic, a miracle worker, a saint or a religious leader."--Percy

How would you know that? Science is tentative. Nor can we predict what might be inexplicable tomorrow. Tentativity.--Percy

lemme google.... That sure seems like a rational approach to life.
Ringo seems to nearly incorporate faith in humanity as a religion, however. I highly doubt that we will eventually solve all of our problems nor will some of them even be possible to understand. Despite Tangles wishes, God will never go away, nor will organized religion, but hopefully we will become wiser as to what we expect (Him, Her It) to do for us and what our obligations are to our species as well as our responsibilities.

"Rest of us" = All of us that aren't arguing with me about the definition of "miracle". That includes even you now, doesn't it? An event is called a "miracle" by people who believe there is no natural explanation. Whether they attribute it to a specific supernatural cause or not, "can't be explained by natural causes" implies supernatural causes, doesn't it?

That's exactly why we can't claim that something is inexplicable.

I can keep correcting you as often as you insist on being wrong about that. I believe that humanity, human knowledge, etc. is all we can count on. We certainly can not count on your God because He has His own agenda and His own whims. If we want something done, we gotta do it ourselves.

Ah, the lightbulb goes on. Calling Tangle "the only one" was a bit off. More accurately, it's you and Jar on one side, me and Tangle on the other, Phat and caffeine sort of auditing, and New Cat's Eye with a middle position where miracles are possible and supernatural and never scientific. I only went back as far as 12/20. Why is "can't be explained by natural causes" in quotes? It's not something anyone said but you, just now in your post. It isn't wording I used or would use, so I don't understand the quotes.What I would say and have said is that a miracle is not explicable by natural or scientific laws, but the miracle having taken place here in the natural world (the George Washington Bridge moving 50 miles up the Hudson) is very much part of the natural. Miracles would attract a great deal of scientific scrutiny. It would also initiate intense discussion about what it means to be natural and what it means to be scientific, in other words, the kind of discussion Tangle and I are trying to initiate in this thread.--Percy

I understand the objection to characterizing your position "as a religion," but your reply does reemphasize how strongly you put your faith in humanity. I share your position, but from Phat's perspective it's still religion, based upon faith in humanity instead of God.--Percy

More accurately, we can't claim that something will remain inexplicable forever, just as we cannot claim that something will remain explicable forever.Just as we might say, "At present it sure looks like we understand the basics of electricity," were a miracle (event not explicable by natural or scientific laws) to happen we might say, "At present it sure looks like miracles can happen."--Percy

^^^ yup

I suppose in a strict literal sense, everyone in the world is agnostic. There is no such thing as eventual guaranteed certainty. Concerning belief, I could be an agnostic theist. I am quite certain that I believe. I am nor can I ever be certain that I know.Add by edit: More correctly, I am currently not certain that I can know. Perhaps I cannot declare that I will never be certain. Edited by Phat, : upon further contemplation